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FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

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Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#61

Post by pc86 »

geggam wrote: post #20
pc86 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> *If a person tells you to stop an action they find uncomfortable for whatever reason in any way ... it becomes harassment." I don't want to get too far off topic, but this is blatantly false, especially as far as law enforcement is concerned.

Disagree. Lefkowitz v. Turley, 414 U.S. 70, 77 (1973) the Fifth Amendment “not only protects the individual against being involuntarily called as a witness against himself in a criminal prosecution, but also privileges him not to answer official questions put to him in any other proceeding, civil or criminal, formal or informal, where the answers might incriminate him in future criminal proceedings

You have no such protection if you won't be incriminated by the answers (e.g. they are asking you about someone else). You can of course be involuntarily called as a witness in proceedings where you're not being prosecuted.

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#62

Post by ryanl0l »

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #60
ryanlol wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and they could've just gone to her and done it. When the FBI served me with a subpoena they were waiting in the tube when I walked out of a plane. I'm sure they'd be capable of going even further to serve someone with a NSL.

Well, good luck "just going to" her now that she's been tipped off.

Based on my read of her blog post there was nothing stopping the FBI from doing just that while she was in the US.

It'll definitely be very easy for them to do that if she ever wants to enter the US in the future.

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#63

Post by MacsHeadroom »

maze-le wrote: post #54
chinathrow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.dw.com/en/snowden-ally-appelbaum-claims-his-berli...

What really worries me about this story is the following question: Are german agencies involved in this? I mean, assume the break ins are real, can the FBI operate in a foreign country without consent? At least they should know it and did nothing to stop it... Or am I msitaken here somewhere?

>can the FBI operate in a foreign country

What do you think embassies are for?

It seems likely that Germany was cooperative, at the least. But they needn't be. These are spies we're talking about, afterall.

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#64

Post by grecy »

>“But… if we happen to run into her on the street, we’re gonna be asking her some questions without you present.”

Impressive for a LEO to state out loud he doesn't care about rights and due process. Like maybe he thinks he's above the law.

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#65

Post by warmblood »

maze-le wrote: post #41
warmblood wrote: post #22

This is terrorism. Given what we all know based on past events about how the FBI conducts their activities, there is no way any reasonably aware citizen can conduct their life normally after such an encounter. The last discussion thread on this topic had more than a few people complaining that Isis (the given name of the developer in the article) is overreacting and paranoid, which is a saddening response to see. It…

I wouldn't use the word 'terrorism'. Its usage is already inflated beyond reason... I'd rather call it what it is: intimidation / harrasment.

That's fair. I'm just really frustrated by how long this has been going on and the institutional resistance to addressing it for the better.

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#66

Post by [deleted] »

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #60
ryanlol wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and they could've just gone to her and done it. When the FBI served me with a subpoena they were waiting in the tube when I walked out of a plane. I'm sure they'd be capable of going even further to serve someone with a NSL.

Well, good luck "just going to" her now that she's been tipped off.

[deleted]

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#67

Post by Bartweiss »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #38
njloof wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She does (still) have a canary: https://fyb.patternsinthevoid.net/canary.html

Could an NSL require you to leave canaries in place?

It's never been directly tested in court (not publicly, anyway). The idea is that you can be compelled not to speak about something, but not compelled to speak about it. Forced speech (especially dishonest speech) has never been endorsed by a court.

Still, canaries are a bit complex. You obviously can't prove why one was taken down, because you can't speak about it.

People floated the idea of using long "canary lists" of different things ("haven't received more than one request for user data", "haven't received more than two requests", etc), but there's suspicion that it wouldn't be legal because it would count as revealing specific facts (and you could perhaps be compelled to remove all of them at once). As is, they don't seem to have been rejected or broken, but they have to take the form of one-and-done notices that something happened.

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#68

Post by Bartweiss »

cptskippy wrote: post #59

She lost my support at vegan gluten-free brownies . She's clearly a monster. But seriously, this really stinks. If talking to the FBI wasn't going to have negative consequences for her then why would they choose to approach her like that? The whole attitude by law enforcement that "anyone who doesn't 100% cooperate with us on our terms is an enemy and should be treated as such" really doesn't foster cooperation but i…

The part about "meeting her on the street" is particularly slimy. Declining to pass questions through a lawyer is shady, but asking a person to confirm their lawyer's identity as a trap to question them is bizarre.

The whole thing reads like its either an agency involved in something unethical, or an agency so far removed from decent behavior that they no longer notice when they're menacing innocents.

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#69

Post by maze-le »

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #63
maze-le wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really worries me about this story is the following question: Are german agencies involved in this? I mean, assume the break ins are real, can the FBI operate in a foreign country without consent? At least they should know it and did nothing to stop it... Or am I msitaken here somewhere?

>can the FBI operate in a foreign country What do you think embassies are for? It seems likely that Germany was cooperative, at the least. But they needn't be. These are spies we're talking about, afterall.

I always was under the assumption, that the FBI is a police-force, not a spy-agency (like the CIA or NSA). I kind of realize that the difference is getting smaller in recent years.

There is good reason to keep them (Police and Intelligence) separated, in germany we call this 'Trennungsgebot', this is a direct historical consequence of the Gestapo.

So, technically, is the FBI a police or an intelligence agency?

Re: FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demand Meeting, but Refusing to Explain Why

#70

Post by danielweber »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #38
njloof wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She does (still) have a canary: https://fyb.patternsinthevoid.net/canary.html

Could an NSL require you to leave canaries in place?

If you are required not to communicate something, then you don't communicate it. Period.

Hackers are bad at thinking "oh, I'll just not not not not do the thing, and it will all be okay, I'm so clever." They imagine they are Captain Kirk talking a computer to death. No one has ever been as smart as them!

We wouldn't let a CEO route around insider trading laws with a "I don't say this is a good time to buy my stock" canary. We wouldn't let a prosecutor under orders not to discuss a case with the public get away with it by selectively deleting a series of canaries.

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