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TTIP Documents Revealed

international.sueddeutsche.de

61–70 of 94 posts

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to more details about this? As far as I know the VAT law applies only to service providers (like Skype, and AWS) and you can easily file taxes through the mini one-shop-stop way ( http://www2.deloitte.com/global/en/pages/tax/articles/eu-201... - chose an EU Member State, I recommend Ireland, their online thingie seems to be okay ).

Unfortunately, it appears that you have been misinformed. There is no lower threshold to who the new rules affect. Also, while the mechanics of filing via MOSS aren't too bad in themselves, there are numerous other problems caused as a direct result of the VAT changes. As a couple of examples, there are several practical problems with keeping records to the required standard, and related conflicts between the rules a…

> There is no lower threshold to who the new rules affect.

I never claimed there is a minimum amount, I just said that not anything over the net is automatically subject to the new "customer's host state's VAT applies" rule.

> conflicts between the rules about VAT and other EU consumer protection rules about advertising all-inclusive prices

You can't advertise as "9.99EUR + VAT"? Or guess the VAT rate based on geo-IP location association?

What kind of services do you provide?

I agree that it's still a far cry from a great solution. First of all they have too many damned useless documents and no code at all. (At least I haven't found any.) Nor a proper infographics, or a diagram illustrating the flow.

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#62
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, it appears that you have been misinformed. There is no lower threshold to who the new rules affect. Also, while the mechanics of filing via MOSS aren't too bad in themselves, there are numerous other problems caused as a direct result of the VAT changes. As a couple of examples, there are several practical problems with keeping records to the required standard, and related conflicts between the rules a…

> There is no lower threshold to who the new rules affect. I never claimed there is a minimum amount, I just said that not anything over the net is automatically subject to the new "customer's host state's VAT applies" rule. > conflicts between the rules about VAT and other EU consumer protection rules about advertising all-inclusive prices You can't advertise as "9.99EUR + VAT"? Or guess the VAT rate based on geo-IP…

I never claimed there is a minimum amount, I just said that not anything over the net is automatically subject to the new "customer's host state's VAT applies" rule.

No, you said only service providers, citing two of the biggest firms in tech.

Unfortunately, the rule is far more general than that. Anyone selling any sort of digital services or products online is covered, even if it's just someone selling crosswords from their kitchen table that are then supplied in electronic form.

You can't advertise as "9.99EUR + VAT"?

Technically, probably not. For B2C sales, prices are typically supposed to be shown VAT-inclusive according to the various consumer protection rules. Naturally that is difficult if you don't yet know what the applicable VAT rate is.

Or guess the VAT rate based on geo-IP location association?

You can guess, but that infamously is not a sufficient standard of proof of customer's location for the required record keeping, so you might have to change your mind later. For the reasons above, that can cause compliance issues of its own.

There are other problems with relying on IP-based geolocation as well. For example, some EU member states have regional variations in the applicable VAT rates for the same products or services. To the best of my knowledge, no IP-based system yet exists that has sufficient accuracy to cope with that. In fact, even within the regions they do cover, most such systems are expected to give the wrong answer perhaps 10% of the time because proxies, VPNs, errors in the underlying IP-to-location database, and so on.

There are plenty of other problems with the new VAT system as well. We haven't even talked about being accountable to and subject to audit by the tax authorities in every member state, or the number of such states that have already sent out mass demands for incorrect tax revenues under threat of immediate legal action if they aren't paid, in some cases even demanding payment faster than the receiving small business could reasonably take legal advice to make sure it wasn't their mistake.

The whole VAT mess is just a giant screw-up, a set of rules designed after long and expensive debates, perhaps conceived with noble intentions, but ultimately implemented with horrific incompetence. Unfortunately, the same could be said of various other recent EU rules affecting small businesses, consumer protections, and related areas as well.

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#63
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting article I remembered from a few months ago about the analogous provisions in a similar international trade deal, the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The legal experts commenting there don't seem to share your optimistic view of how these kinds of laws work in practice, so unless all of the issues they raise have been differently addressed in the TTIP wording, it appears there is cause for concern. h…

Mr Kahale might be an expert, but that doesn't mean he is not biased toward his clients. After all, the scope definition clause was a futile attempt from the beginning, since any law can be dressed up as environmental or "deemed appropriate" by the State. I don't really trust lawmakers on this, (nor corporations not to abuse these treaties as yet another venue to argue their bullshit or righteous grievance), let's a…

Mr Kahale might be an expert, but that doesn't mean he is not biased toward his clients.

Sorry, I don't follow. He's an expert lawyer in the field, his firm often represents governments in these actions, and he's saying that the wording doesn't protect those governments as much as they think it does and providing a very simple and clear reason for his position. Whether or not he might be biased in a courtroom or tribunal does not affect the validity of his argument about the wording.

You apply for a very costly permit, and boom, that sector has just been banned by the State, because irrational fear.

Well, that "irrational fear" followed the incident at Fukushima. That was the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl, and although it's too early to know the true cost in human life, most estimates expect several thousand people to die early because of evacuation conditions, cancers caused by radiation exposure, and so on. Evidently some level of concern about the safety of nuclear reactors is justified.

The question is where to draw the line. If in fact the Vattenfall reactors in Germany were not vulnerable to any similar problems and they really were closed down suddenly despite posing no risk, it seems fair that they should receive some reasonable level of compensation. On the other hand, in a case like the cigarette firms we talked about before, imposing laws that benefit human health at the expense of the business because what the business does is inherently harmful and they know it, I have little sympathy if the business loses out even if it was a direct result of the government's actions.

One could reasonably debate the forum in which such determinations might be made. However, the idea that an entire case with potentially billions of pounds of taxpayers' money hanging in the balance could sensibly be decided by just three people, behind closed doors, without any means of appeal, seems absurd to me.

tl;dr arbitration tribunals ain't saints, but they seem much more sane, egalitarian and fair, than a host country's high court (which are usually ideologically biased either traditionally or after the current regime stuffs it full of its trustees)

I see little evidence of that here in the UK. The British government can and does lose big court cases all the time, and our judiciary is fiercely defensive of its independence from the government of the day. If a foreign investor isn't willing to trust the legal system of a host nation to act reasonably, perhaps they should be investing elsewhere anyway, because there are plenty of other ways to lose huge amounts of money in that case without any hostility from the host government itself.

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#64
post #44
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S., for example, demands that statutory prohibitions on products to protect human health should only be allowed to be passed if it has been scientifically proven that these products really are harmful. Sounds like a reasonable argument.

In a way the US is regulated by a high risk of expensive lawsuits with really high amounts of compensation if they harm someone. So a company will not release a product that might be harmful because they could end up paying hundreds of million dollars of compensation to harmed people. These kinds of lawsuits don't exist in Europe, in the worst case a company will pay $10,000 to a single person. But there are other pr…

You should look up our pharmaceutical industry. They keep the risk down to a certain amount, forge the data with questionable methodology, make billions on the products, and then pay a fraction of that in settlements or whatever. Banking sector is similarly bad about stuff except with money instead of lives (most of the time).

Yes, they'll release a product that might be harmful. The tradeoff is whether they can get away with it in court. The Ford Pinto case is a classic example of that kind of thinking gone wrong. I suggest you look its details up to see how our boardrooms think on things. It was really bad. Least they paid for it.

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#65
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S., for example, demands that statutory prohibitions on products to protect human health should only be allowed to be passed if it has been scientifically proven that these products really are harmful. Sounds like a reasonable argument.

Wait until it's proven harmless or wait until it's proven harmful. Two different approaches and I personally think one is wiser.

Scientifically proving a thing to be harmless is a fool's errand.

The main arguments against GMO essentially boil down to that they may be harmful in ways we can't yet test for. Even if we had enumerated all the ways in which things could be harmful, we wouldn't know our list was complete. You might as well ban food that hasn't been scientifically proven not to harm invisible garden gnomes.

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#66
post #39
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S., for example, demands that statutory prohibitions on products to protect human health should only be allowed to be passed if it has been scientifically proven that these products really are harmful. Sounds like a reasonable argument.

I disagree. Maybe the prohibitions being statutory is a bit strong but I think products should be proven safe before they're allowed. The burden of proof shouldn't be on the government, it should be on the manufacturer, similar to how medicines require FDA approval.

How do you proof something is 100% safe?

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#67
post #33

> The U.S. government concurrently has criticized the fundamental prevention principal of the EU Consumer Centre which protects 500 million Europeans from consuming genetically modified food and hormone-treated meat. Good for the EU. If only our government showed the same care for its own citizens.

That's a matter of opinion. An opinion unsupported by evidence.

Furthermore, it's demanding proof of a negative. We can't prove that carrots won't attract swarms of malicious homosexual space aliens with a taste for human brains to Earth, and therefore should ban carrots because they can't be proven to be safe. Politicians in support of carrots should be shamed as being pro-gayzombpocalypse. Spread the fear!

The very reason we're creating GMOs for food is to reduce the resources (land, energy, fertilizers, water, etc.) needed for food production. The motivation of course is that lower resource usage means lower production costs.

Requiring unreasonable burdens of proof mean greater waste in our food production, but that side of things isn't a scary and therefore gets less consideration than the limitless possibilities of unknown harms that could come from GMOs.

There's some drop in the price of a hamburger below which I'm not willing to risk a Leprechaun extinction. However, I'm willing to risk extinction of Leprechauns, Yetis, and Loch Ness "monsters" in exchange for less land needed to grow my food, and fewer children being under-nourished. These are real problems that GMOs can help with.

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#69

I just wondered about one thing. Why when the US asked (forced ?) the EU to negotiate in secret didn't the EU answer with a f.u. ? Also who are these people that agree to do this in secret ?

US has a pretty strong political leverage in most of europe. 1.Believable defence against Russia is built on the existence of Nato and the US forces it brings. 2. I guess there is still a sense of goodwill involved. US funds helped to rebuild europe after ww2 to stopgap Soviet Union. 3. Economic threat (not direct, but latent). 4. Personal reputation. I guess being too anti US is considered a faux pass in various places.

Re: TTIP Documents Revealed

#70
post #67
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a matter of opinion. An opinion unsupported by evidence.

Furthermore, it's demanding proof of a negative. We can't prove that carrots won't attract swarms of malicious homosexual space aliens with a taste for human brains to Earth, and therefore should ban carrots because they can't be proven to be safe. Politicians in support of carrots should be shamed as being pro-gayzombpocalypse. Spread the fear! The very reason we're creating GMOs for food is to reduce the resources…

In fact, if more "proof" for safety of food would be appropriate, it wouldn't be on GMO food but on organic, which is in fact responsible of the last big-scale food poisoning in EU, which killed over 50 people in Germany.

Imagine the hysteria if a GMO food item would have been involved in the chain of events!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Germany_E._coli_O104:H4_o...

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