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College is a waste of time and money for kids

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Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#61

Post by yters »

dusklight wrote: post #18

College gives kids thousands of other kids to hang out with, at a critical point in their lives when they are just entering into adulthood. College gives kids a chance to create their own social identity, as seen through the eyes of their peers, rather than their parents. If you are a social recluse, and spend most of your college years hiding behind your computer screen, then yeah, you might as well not go. If you r…

In my very limited experience the normal work world isn't a lot like college or public school, where all my peers were people my own age. I think learning to socialize with older people is much more useful.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#62

Post by aswanson »

tlrobinson wrote: post #30

If all you want to get out of college is to learn to program or other "trade" skills, then yeah it's probably a waste of time, but that's not what college is all about (unless you go to a vocational school)

Seriously. Imagine if children treated kindergarten with the same attitude that some people treat college with, the trade school approach to education. They'd never get off the dime.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#63

Post by Retric »

krschultz wrote: post #4

Hes off the mark by a long shot. Is college right for everyone? No, and on both sides of the equation. A very small group of people are too smart for it, get too constrained by it, etc. There is a much larger group of people who are not smart enough for it, or don't work hard enough to get there. For everyone else, it makes sense. To say that you won't make up the money (and he says 200,000 - 400,000, that is a 50,00…

Your assuming everyone get's out in 4 years.

He said 200 - 400k which IMO is not unreasonable at the high end. Tuition @ $44 per student + living expenses @ 15k/year + lost wages @ 21k / year = 80k / year * 5 years = 400k.

IMO the problem is at the low end if you take 3 years to get out of a state school with a free ride you are only talking about (10k living expenses – free room and board + 21k lost wages) * 3 = ~93k.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#65

Post by Retric »

NoBSWebDesign wrote: post #28

As you peeps have pointed out, 400k is ridiculous. I go to an expensive private college, and it's on the order of 120 for 4 years (though it's actually a 5-year school). And if his kids are really entrepreneurial, as he claims, then they'll have the motivation to apply for scholarships like I did. I have received absolutely no financial help from my parents, and yet have accumulated very little debt. I have learned m…

A) When you look at the high numbers you need to ignore scholarships as many don't qualify. B) Its a 5 year school so 30 * 5 = 150k not 120k C) You could be making a lot of money if you worked instead of spending all that time in school.

Finally, you could get significant returns if you invested your first years tuition by the end of 5 years.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#66

Post by cdr »

geebee wrote: post #39
geebee wrote: post #38

This is a great article, even though I disagree with most of it. I think it's a great article because the conventional wisdom about college does need to be challenged. Just like the notion that you have to attend a prestigious college to be successful needs to be debunked, the notion that you have to attend college at all should be challenged. I'd agree wholeheartedly with anyone who said that college should not be a…

One thing to add - he's not totally off base about the 400K price tag. If you could earn 50K/year as a high school grad, that's 200K in lost earnings (though it would be taxed). Stanford's tuition is about 40K/year now, right? So there's another 160K. Not too far off (I wouldn't count living expenses, because those would be incurred regardless of whether you were in college). A high school grad with no skills isn't g…

I think including potential wages is at least a little weaselly. Besides the fact that you can work while going to school, get scholarships, etc, you could just as easily say that any lost earning potential while taking classes should quickly be made up by the difference in your wages from having a degree.

Even if you do, 50K/year as a high school graduate (at least in the US) is being pretty optimistic. I don't think most of my friends in non-technical programs didn't even make that out of college. The average starting salary for a BS CS grad even is probably still only around 50K.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#67

Post by cdr »

Retric wrote: post #65
NoBSWebDesign wrote: post #28

As you peeps have pointed out, 400k is ridiculous. I go to an expensive private college, and it's on the order of 120 for 4 years (though it's actually a 5-year school). And if his kids are really entrepreneurial, as he claims, then they'll have the motivation to apply for scholarships like I did. I have received absolutely no financial help from my parents, and yet have accumulated very little debt. I have learned m…

A) When you look at the high numbers you need to ignore scholarships as many don't qualify. B) Its a 5 year school so 30 * 5 = 150k not 120k C) You could be making a lot of money if you worked instead of spending all that time in school. Finally, you could get significant returns if you invested your first years tuition by the end of 5 years.

The fifth year is quite possibly a year of work-study, like in my degree. Either that or adding a second degree/masters, which is going to increase earnings potential hugely.

I have seen statistics before about how having a degree positively influences your earnings potential, but I have yet to see anything but "feelings" from those claiming going to college has a negative effect.

If we're going on anecdotes, I seriously doubt I could have made that much going into work straight out of high school, and I seriously doubt there are many people that could.

I would bet there's a more people that could qualify for significant scholarships than could make significant money going straight into work.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#68

Post by geebee »

cdr wrote: post #66
geebee wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to add - he's not totally off base about the 400K price tag. If you could earn 50K/year as a high school grad, that's 200K in lost earnings (though it would be taxed). Stanford's tuition is about 40K/year now, right? So there's another 160K. Not too far off (I wouldn't count living expenses, because those would be incurred regardless of whether you were in college). A high school grad with no skills isn't g…

I think including potential wages is at least a little weaselly. Besides the fact that you can work while going to school, get scholarships, etc, you could just as easily say that any lost earning potential while taking classes should quickly be made up by the difference in your wages from having a degree. Even if you do, 50K/year as a high school graduate (at least in the US) is being pretty optimistic. I don't thin…

This is why the right answer is "it depends". And it's why I liked the original article, even though I disagree with the conclusion that college is a waste of time. It might be a waste of time, it might be useful but not worth the cost, and it might be enormously useful and well worth the cost.

I have a feeling a really good hacker who can do consulting work, or join a startup, could easily earn more than 50K, and might be ahead of college grads by the time they do enter the workforce. Think of it this way - you might make more with PhD than a BS, but you won't necessarily earn more than you would with a BS+6years experience, and even if you do, you have to account for lost earnings.

Of course, High School only vs. BS is a very very different equation from BS only vs Ph.D. Personally, I do think that smart people who want a career in a technology related field would be well advised to attend college.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#69

Post by icky »

Retric wrote: post #63
krschultz wrote: post #4

Hes off the mark by a long shot. Is college right for everyone? No, and on both sides of the equation. A very small group of people are too smart for it, get too constrained by it, etc. There is a much larger group of people who are not smart enough for it, or don't work hard enough to get there. For everyone else, it makes sense. To say that you won't make up the money (and he says 200,000 - 400,000, that is a 50,00…

Your assuming everyone get's out in 4 years. He said 200 - 400k which IMO is not unreasonable at the high end. Tuition @ $44 per student + living expenses @ 15k/year + lost wages @ 21k / year = 80k / year * 5 years = 400k. IMO the problem is at the low end if you take 3 years to get out of a state school with a free ride you are only talking about (10k living expenses – free room and board + 21k lost wages) * 3 = ~93…

Where is this "21k lost wages" figure coming from?

I guarantee you, if I were only forgoing a wage of 21k/year, I'd finish school in a heartbeat!

The problem for a lot of people on this forum might be that they can no longer justify college economically: it won't improve your earnings if you're already making a good living, so it becomes more of a wouldn't-it-be-nice sort of thing, an expensive recreational activity to maybe finish someday after retirement.

Re: College is a waste of time and money for kids

#70

Post by dusklight »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #59
dusklight wrote: post #18

College gives kids thousands of other kids to hang out with, at a critical point in their lives when they are just entering into adulthood. College gives kids a chance to create their own social identity, as seen through the eyes of their peers, rather than their parents. If you are a social recluse, and spend most of your college years hiding behind your computer screen, then yeah, you might as well not go. If you r…

>I learnt some really important life lessons in college, most of them outside of class. What makes you think you would not have learned the same things (or equally valuable things) if you did not go to college, but did stop living with your parents?

As yters points out correctly, the real world is not like a college environment, where you are surrounded by other people your own age.

There is something about being surrounded by other people just as clueless, inexperienced, and eager to experiment as you, that stimulates the creation of convention-defying ideas.

That said I would like to think I did not need college to become an intelligent, aware, adult. But it sure did help and it sure was fun.

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