Live data from Hacker News

Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

mail.fsfeurope.org

61–70 of 282 posts

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#61
And it's getting worse, SGX[1] allows 3rd party encrypted binary blobs to run on your CPU without being inspectable.

It's sold as way to protect your secrets from malware. But it more likely will be used to run DRM code on the user's computer while treating the user as a hostile entity.

[1] https://software.intel.com/en-us/sgx

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#62

ARM architectures also suffer from this. You'll be hard pressed to find a board that doesn't require a propriety board support package somewhere in the stack. Ironically, it is usually the bootloader that is/requires a blob or it is the DTB. I remember being in middle school and reading Stallman's articles on the dangers of a TPM-oriented push by manufacturers. As cliche as it is, Stallman was right. The push for pla…

Most Allwinner chips can run an entirely open-source stack and there's quite a few hobbyist-oriented boards out there based on them. (Technically the ROM bootloader is closed source, but all it does is load your choice of bootloader into RAM and execute it. After that you have full control, including the ability to run code in TrustZone mode and on the supervisor CPU core if one exists.)

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#63

ARM architectures also suffer from this. You'll be hard pressed to find a board that doesn't require a propriety board support package somewhere in the stack. Ironically, it is usually the bootloader that is/requires a blob or it is the DTB. I remember being in middle school and reading Stallman's articles on the dangers of a TPM-oriented push by manufacturers. As cliche as it is, Stallman was right. The push for pla…

I'm using ASUS C201 which uses ARM. It was a Chromebook, now running libreboot and parabola linux.

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#64
Hmm. OK, I have two questions - maybe somebody here has answers:

1) "...these proprietary blobs could easily contain code to exfiltrate encryption keys, remotely activate microphones and cameras..."

This seems basically impossible to actually achieve in reality though, because there will still associated network traffic that can be sniffed, and will have been by now, right? I mean, it is plausible that somehow we all just failed to notice that our computers are sending video traffic to the NSA without our noticing it?

I can imagine this happening on phones, where the baseband chip is much harder to actually sniff. But through my LAN? I doubt that.

2) Let's imagine that this post is entirely true. Why do Intel and AMD do this? If it's not part of a grand conspiracy, then why? Clearly there are far easier and cheaper ways to achieve what they view as security that don't require such a crippling approach. What's the upside to them?

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#65
post #24
post #17

Check libreboot.org On their FAQ page: https://libreboot.org/faq , you can see the question "Why is the latest{Intel,AMD} hw unsupported?" They go into more detail than the provided link. Also, dropped supports starts in 2008 for Intel, 2013 for amd. The truth is: we need something like this to protect the whole boot process. But unless we can put our keys/sw in there, we will never be sure.

I was at FOSDEM this year (2016) and there was a talk from the leader of LibreBoot. Honestly, his talk on the state of the project was very bitter. He literally said that there is absolutely no hope that LibreBoot will ever be able to cope with ME, and that the fight is over since 2008. As much as I would absolutely love to be able to run a free firmware, unless there is a major change/outsider in the hardware manufa…

I've been using a Raspberry Pi 3 for the past week, and have been pleasantly surprised by the performance. It's no speed demon, to be sure, but it's good enough for all my basic tasks. I wish there were a general "open computing" branch of the Raspberry Pi Foundation that would produce a $50-$100 "pro" version with more RAM and faster bus+peripherals.

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#66
post #2

> Secure Boot [...] requires FOSS users to purchase a license from Microsoft Nope.

Requires purchase of a cerficate from one of the authorities Microsoft recognises (Verisign/Digicert/...) and then the signature of Microsoft on compiled bootloader code. Either way, you have to pay and you have to get Microsoft's permission.

It certainly does not require FOSS users to purchase a license. There is already a shim loader signed by a MS-recognized authority, which ships with a signed copy of MokManager, which lets you register a "machine owner key" of your own choosing. You can then use that key to sign kernels for your own machine, or for anyone else who wants to go through the on-screen enrollment step to trust your key.

https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20303.html

No additional money has to change hands between anyone, and no additional permission needs to be granted from Microsoft to anyone. (You have to get the permission of someone with physical access to the machine during boot, but if your goal here was FOSS users controlling their own computing, it's a good thing that that permission is required.)

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#67

It's great that these guys pushing POWER8 at least have a workable situation, but at least for me, throwing $3,700 at a motherboard (Alone!) just isn't feasible. I would love to be free of proprietary firmware, but it would seem that's only for people better off than myself.

You have to start with a single step. Costs could go down over time.

You're absolutely right; Most advances do eventually trickle down. But, most advances in FOSS have benefited users who are less well off, making computing, both libre and in general, more available to them. It's frustrating that in order to get a truly free computer one has to pay about the equivalent of 3 months wage, which is a no go for most people I know.

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#68
post #48

I wonder if Apple might do something about this. They don't care so much for the FOSS side of things, obviously, but I wonder if they might demand chips from Intel without the management engine, because it's a potential attack vector they can't control.

I suspect at some point they will simply drop Intel for their own (ARM) platform. I think moving will be easy once all app store submissions are in bitcode.

I strongly believe you are correct. They have been mentioning that their ARM processors are desktop worthy. I also believe Apple are displeased with Intel's current inability to consistently get their new chips to market. All of this has to make one think Apple will take matters into their own hands soon. Likely within the next 2 years.

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#69
post #41

Joanna has proposed a model where we minimize the trust we put in x86 with a peripheral. Seems like a plausible path forward to me. http://blog.invisiblethings.org/2015/12/23/state_harmful.htm...

There was an excellent talk related to this that Joanna Rutkowska gave at the 32c3 conference (she talked quite a bit about Intel's ME too, I was completely unaware of its existence up to that point): https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7352-towards_reasonably_trustwor...

Re: Freedom and security issues on x86 platforms

#70
post #64

Hmm. OK, I have two questions - maybe somebody here has answers: 1) "...these proprietary blobs could easily contain code to exfiltrate encryption keys, remotely activate microphones and cameras..." This seems basically impossible to actually achieve in reality though, because there will still associated network traffic that can be sniffed, and will have been by now, right? I mean, it is plausible that somehow we all…

It's called covert channels. It could be done by flipping some unused/ignored bits in ip4/tcp headers in a stream of traffic that goes past a collection point.
Post reply on HN