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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

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61–70 of 247 posts

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#61
post #5

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

Keep in mind that Turkey has often and for long stretches been a buffer/ally between the west and middle and far east. Right before the French and English invaded Turkey in WW1, it was used as a friendly buffer state. So, it's not some place that can be ignored easily.

The fear of Turks in Europe solidified after the defeat in Vienna and left a deep mark that predisposed the idea of Europe as a Christian club. Go look around statues and stuff in Vienna to see what I mean. I have Turkish friends in Germany who, given the treatment, experience being called a Turk as a racial slur. In some sense it's good that so many real arabs are in Germany right now, which should show the broader population the difference between Anatolians and Middle-Easterners. The Turkish population is of quite a mixed ethnic background, even today. This is normal for a place that's not tiny and partly due to cross-pollination too.

The way the EU has evolved is highly questionable and the memberships of many are even more dubious to say the least, so there are much deeper problems than whether another place like the UK, just with almost no Christianity, should get laxer trade agreements or not. Think about why some very central European Christian countries don't use the EURO or in the case of Iceland aren't even fully in the EU but could have been.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#62
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Turkish expat (read: immigrant) working in Germany as a software engineer since 7 years. This situation disturbs me two folds: 1) For the reasons you mentioned already, 2) The power gained through this dirty game being used to suppress the already heavily weakened opposition further in my once democratic country (However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest).

It's really weird to think of you as an expat, because we are used to thinking of the turkish in ways that are improper. Most expats are expats because the grass was greener where they went. Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"? Just using that word makes it seem filthy for people from the middle east to come to europe. How are they different from europeans leaving their countries behind? La…

> Do you feel welcome in Germany? Just curious.

Yes. After living even in a "conservative" town, I feel more welcome than I feel in the city I was born - Istanbul. In my first 5 years, I usually had to ask people to speak to me in German, they usually switched to English to make me more comfortable. Sure, I can give many examples of racism but the great thing about Germany is that racists aren't significant threats to my rights as a resident. Also, I think back in Turkey, there were many more cases of racism - it's just that they don't get any attention among "bigger problems" (what being a bigger problem is another topic I'd rather not dig into). After all, I'm happy that here people are ready to discuss such things.

> Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"?

I would guess if you came here to advance your career, then you are eligible to be an expat. Of course I'm kidding. I think many people, for not-so-evil-but-still-a-bit-disturbing reasons, would not like to be called an immigrant. I actually do not care and am happy with the word.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#63
post #55
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect from a government run by to former East German state security members (IMs)? IM "Erika" and IM "Raupe" Erdogan is an idiot. He overplayed his cards and does not realize it. I hope Turkey stays out of the EU forever.

Why is this getting downvoted? https://www.google.com/search?q=IM+Raupe#q=IM+Raupe+gauck https://www.google.com/search?q=IM+Raupe#q=IM+erika+merkel There is one famous picture, showing Merkel at a very young age in the outskirts of Berlin in front of a house of a dissident that was under observation. WTF was she doing there? And why did she forbid any further publication of this picture, after is was shown by a Magaz…

Google translate:

The case Havemann

A concrete clue look at the Merkel-critics for their presumption that it does not take quite as accurate the Chancellor in describing their past with the truth. It concerns Robert Havemann, a famous regime-critic who had to live under house arrest in the GDR since 1976 and was under permanent Stasi observation. The authors of a television documentary for WDR met in 2005 at the Search for a film about the Stasi secret to the Act of Robert Havemann - and in there was a controversial detail: a photo of Angela Merkel. The picture was in a series of Stasi shots that people showed who were staying around the plot of Robert Havemann over the years or those visited. What did Angela Merkel there? Was she the officers conducting the observation? Visited them the critics of a harmless reason? Not likely, because the access to the house only selected people were allowed. Visited they him so in an official capacity to pump him? From Merkel herself there to little enlightening. She was taken by a fellow student from the Havemann Family with the plot. That was all, no further comments. Spicy is in this context, however, a fact that is occupied. During her time in the Academy of Sciences she shared an office with Havemann's son, also worked as a physicist. Just a coincidence? Angela Merkel claimed that it had practically to do with Havemann Junior hardly anything. Merkel prevented publication

Assuming the already discussed WDR documentary "In the Eye of the power the images of the Stasi" in any case wanted to disclose the relevant Merkel photo, but got from the Chancellor office a rejection. For "reasons of protection of their privacy" permission was refused. In the film, then the photo of Merkel has shown herself but defaced. In some Swiss magazines, however, the controversial photo was published. There you suspect the Chancellor in numerous articles then, more practically, to have been active as a Stasi informant. A claim that would establish the authors of the WDR-Reportage otherwise not in their documentation. For this process to derive a spying activities Merkel, is quite wrong and untrustworthy, the author wrote Holger Kulick to the makers of the "Chronicle Berlin", had constructed such a relationship. Indeed, Merkel did Posted therefore not agreed to, because they do not want to fall in the back her political mentor Helmut Kohl, who at the time publicly against it struggled to publish his Stasi file. But is this statement? Is that really the only reason? Here alone is Angela Merkel's words.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#64
post #60
post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

A few comments on your statement.. - Erdogan's intolerance for satire or criticism is very disturbing indeed, but the law that is used in these cases was introduced in 2005, during Ahmet Necdet Sezer's presidency (TCK 299), being an expert in constitutional law, he should have vetoed it. Erdogan knows that media eroded his predecessors power,(e.g. Turgut Ozal) and unlike them, he will do anything to not allow that fo…

That is misleading. Erdogan was prime minister at the time - it is his law.

Also he will be in power for a long long time - he has a big core of pious Turks that support him. The recent elections were always about him getting a supermajority.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#65
post #5

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

It is interesting that you insult everyone that disagrees with you: "Fucking racist".

It looks like you are so unsure about your own arguments that you need insulting them to feel better.

The main reason EU closed the door to Turkey had nothing to do with race(their race is the same of Europeans'), and everything to do with culture and religion, specially religion.

You could disagree with them and their arguments, but insulting them is not ok.

Turkey is a Muslim country. People like Erdogan don't like Western values, he is very clear about that, they prefer a Muslim theocracy in which every part of life is controlled by this (non sense) book written 1500 years ago.

To think seriously about the consequences of letting a hundred million Muslims entering Europe is not racist, it is the politicians' job.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#66
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree they're not on the same level - but I think this is more Putin have a superior intellect and grasp of subtlety and Realpolitik than Erdogan. I'm fully expecting Putin to pull the old President/Prime Minister switcheroo again in 2024, after winning the 2018 election.

Putin subtle? Like the switcheroo? And a second one would be subtle? The guy's an outright buffoon.

It's not that Putin is subtle. It's that Erdogan is much less so.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#67
post #4

I wonder how much more of this sort of thing has to go on before the media begins widespread use of the word "dictator" for Erdogan? Illegal criticism, seizing opposition media, violent oppression of minorities, potential election shenanigans - I can imagine next he'll appoint himself President for Life and rename the it the People's Republic of Turkey. I feel the same thing applies to Putin, but we'll never see the…

He is the Turkish Putin. I find it worrying. Turkey seemed to be such a success until a few years ago. A booming, increasingly western economy, seeming stability. Somehow you expect dictatorship to come with a revolution, but it seems it can slowly creep up on you. All it seems to take is a strong, popular leader. People think they like strong, popular leaders, but I find them a threat to democracy. They tend to thin…

Putin does not take orders from America or EU, Erdogan does. Putin's got a PhD, Erdogan's got nothin and can't speak any English. So it's ridiculous comparing them two.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#68
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with the incompatible cultures and values.

"incompatible cultures and values" are almost exactly the words these racists have always used to keep Turkey out. Britain, Spain, Greece, Cyprus and Slovakia are all compatible, but Turkey is a step too far?

In Germany Holocaust denial is illegal and you can get imprisoned for it. In Turkey it is required to deny the Armenian Genocide where the Turks killed a million or so Armenians, an act the word genocide was invented to describe. In Turkey you can get imprisoned for saying it happened. That's a fairly major incompatibility to deal with.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#70
post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan showed his face to the world (or at least to me) when police violently dispersed the Gezi Park protesters in 2013. I suspect that the situation in Turkey only got worse since then and now the terrible terrorist attacks only add fuel to the police state's fire.

And Europe is helpless as it braces for the massive waves of immigrants coming its way, with Turkey winning big political concessions in exchange for "stopping" them. I can only imagine how Erdogan handles that.

But it's not just Turkey.

I'm afraid this can be said about more and more leaders in lots of countries around the world. Most of the former USSR has developed such political systems/leaders, with Putin leading the pack.

Corruption is growing all over the world and these types of leaders are consequences of that.

In the end it's up to the people of all this countries to use the still remaining democratic levers to bring new people into power.

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