Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism • Hacker News Board

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#61

Post by notahacker » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

labster wrote: post #15

elcapitan wrote: post #11

Maybe this is just a detail of Vice's way to sell their articles, but how is providing free services to people who could otherwise not afford them 'colonialism'?

The colonialism is attempting to enforce Western mores and laws about copyright on the Angolan population. As well as Wikipedia's own culture which is pretty Western itself. While Wikipedia may be attempting to colonize Angola with some of its community conduct values, the population there has another view of Wikipedia's purpose which might be equally valid.

Would you express the same cultural relativistic sentiments about the validity of purpose if a small group decided to repurpose your Wiki?

It's very damaging to trade with the developing world if we start accusing companies of "attempting to colonize" because they have the temerity to expect people granted subsidised access to their website to actually play by the same rules as everyone else. I mean, if we start assuming that Angolans can't or shouldn't abide by the same rules as everyone else, it's very easy to just ensure services aren't affordable to the average Angolan again.

Angolans might have more reason to avoid paying for content than the rest of the world and they might have more reason to use Wikipedia or Facebook as a vector for delivering pirated content than the rest of the world, but the people pirating the content in this manner are at least as aware and deliberate in their circumvention of rules as crackers in other countries, and they should be respected for their clever hacks and blocked from uploading just like crackers elsewhere, and not patronised as people who couldn't possibly be expected to understand or accept Western mores.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#62

Post by Avshalom » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

elcapitan wrote: post #20

labster wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The colonialism is attempting to enforce Western mores and laws about copyright on the Angolan population. As well as Wikipedia's own culture which is pretty Western itself. While Wikipedia may be attempting to colonize Angola with some of its community conduct values, the population there has another view of Wikipedia's purpose which might be equally valid.

Maybe I missed the part of the article where it said that people in Angola are being forced to use Wikipedia.

Well define 'forced' in your view please. If I hold a gun to your head and say your money or your life am I reeeallly forcing you to give me you money or are you giving me your money out your own choice? Absent Mindflayers 'forced' is always going to be on a continuum.

So if I roll in and say "Here have this access to this thing everyone in the world claims is an economic and social miracle. Free!" and then later once you start using it I roll back around and say "oh yeah, by the way you have to follow the laws of the United States, the laws of a country you are entirely unrepresented by, if you want to use this thing that you're already using. This thing which every one swears is an absolute game changer, this thing that people claim will jump you into the 21st century* , this thing that everyone around the world swears you need."

Okay it's not a gun to their head but it certainly feels more than a hair coercive.

*people being varying levels of racist/ignorant in believing that "the 21st century" is not a date on a calendar but instead a particular sort of culture.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#63

Post by zahmahkibo » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:29 PM UTC

masterofcookies wrote: post #18

The author puts encyclopedic knowledge and movies in the same category ("information") and seems to be arguing that they both should be freely available. I'm not saying that current copyright system isn't completely screwed up and in need of reform, but I don't think disregarding content creators is an optimal solution.

When you are a content creator, you create ONE copy. This does not entitle you to ANY other copies.

Copying is not theft, but copyright sure is.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#64

Post by zahmahkibo » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #61

labster wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The colonialism is attempting to enforce Western mores and laws about copyright on the Angolan population. As well as Wikipedia's own culture which is pretty Western itself. While Wikipedia may be attempting to colonize Angola with some of its community conduct values, the population there has another view of Wikipedia's purpose which might be equally valid.

Would you express the same cultural relativistic sentiments about the validity of purpose if a small group decided to repurpose your Wiki? It's very damaging to trade with the developing world if we start accusing companies of "attempting to colonize" because they have the temerity to expect people granted subsidised access to their website to actually play by the same rules as everyone else. I mean, if we start assu…

For several centuries "trade" with the third world has essentially meant theft and imperialism, so to answer your question, yes.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#65

Post by jtnegrotto » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

elcapitan wrote: post #36

fredguth wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe colonialism, like racism, is something much more easy to spot when you are the side suffering from it. They are not forced to use Wikipedia. They just happen to live in Africa, where most people live in 19th century by Western/Northern standards and they are hacking their way to 21st century. What would you do if you had to pay 80% of your salary for 1Gb of internet? The hacker culture is about "creatively circ…

I was never arguing the creativity part of the wikipedia hack, I adore that and welcome it. I can absolutely understand why they do it and how they do it. I was just questioning the sense of entitlement that is apparently hidden in the "colonialism" criticism, but this seems to be so ideological that it's hard to get to a basic agreement. Different views on the world, I guess.

It might be more comparable to missionary work. Wikipedia is providing valuable resources, but that charitable work can be interwoven with foreign ideals.

But it seems like Wikipedia are conscious of that, so they've taken a hands-off approach to this.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#66

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:31 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #61

labster wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The colonialism is attempting to enforce Western mores and laws about copyright on the Angolan population. As well as Wikipedia's own culture which is pretty Western itself. While Wikipedia may be attempting to colonize Angola with some of its community conduct values, the population there has another view of Wikipedia's purpose which might be equally valid.

Would you express the same cultural relativistic sentiments about the validity of purpose if a small group decided to repurpose your Wiki? It's very damaging to trade with the developing world if we start accusing companies of "attempting to colonize" because they have the temerity to expect people granted subsidised access to their website to actually play by the same rules as everyone else. I mean, if we start assu…

OK, then let's stop pretending this is a benevolent effort by Internet companies to get people on the Internet if that's not what it is. Facebook wants to have it both ways.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#67

Post by notahacker » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:51 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #66

notahacker wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you express the same cultural relativistic sentiments about the validity of purpose if a small group decided to repurpose your Wiki? It's very damaging to trade with the developing world if we start accusing companies of "attempting to colonize" because they have the temerity to expect people granted subsidised access to their website to actually play by the same rules as everyone else. I mean, if we start assu…

OK, then let's stop pretending this is a benevolent effort by Internet companies to get people on the Internet if that's not what it is. Facebook wants to have it both ways.

And the rampant profiteering entity that is Wikipedia?

Are you seriously arguing the Wikimedia Foundation's intentions can't possibly be benevolent because they won't let Angolans turn their server space into a repository of pirated content?

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#68

Post by oldmanjay » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

Avshalom wrote: post #62

elcapitan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I missed the part of the article where it said that people in Angola are being forced to use Wikipedia.

Well define 'forced' in your view please. If I hold a gun to your head and say your money or your life am I reeeallly forcing you to give me you money or are you giving me your money out your own choice? Absent Mindflayers 'forced' is always going to be on a continuum. So if I roll in and say "Here have this access to this thing everyone in the world claims is an economic and social miracle. Free!" and then later onc…

It may "feel" coercive but you didn't make any sort of case that it is. You may view words as having personal definitions that make your point valid but that is a linguistic trick, not an argument.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#69

Post by oldmanjay » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

"Digital colonialism" is almost as silly a concept as cultural appropriation, which is what the Angolans are doing in a very direct sense.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#70

Post by __jal » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

elcapitan wrote: post #28

marcus_holmes wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the objection to zero-rated services. Angolans get to use the internet, but they only get to use the zero-rated bits of it. And they have to use them in ways that westerners approve of. It comes down to money, really. Do we put a "you must be this rich to use the internet" sign up on the planet's communications, or do we allow people to bring their culture and ideas to the party despite their poverty? This wh…

I still don't understand the argument why people who are suddenly given a free thing, and not forced to use it, are now a victim of that and entitled to get everything for free. If we give free drugs for certain diseases to a poor country, would that mean that we enforce our "Western view on health" on them, and that they are actually entitled to get all drugs for free, otherwise it is a form of colonialism?

That, generally, is not the argument. The side you don't see goes a bit like this[1]:

Folks in poor countries aren't stupid, and know Facebook isn't just being nice. Zero-rating strangles local startups who have to compete with the free walled garden; it is a spigot for western culture, which many object to[2]; and it smacks of a particularly Valley-flavored mix of paternalism, greed, and the sort of tote-bagger do-gooderism that led to some major travesties of charity. (You could go look up how Jello Biafra picked his stage name on Wikipedia, over a zero-rated link, if you like.)

Suffice to say, there are good reasons why many people in poor countries are extremely wary of westerners bearing gifts.

This bit isn't directed at the parent, and is something I wanted to say in a different thread about poverty, but here's a rule of thumb that may help: If you observe something that doesn't make sense to you, it is likely that you don't have the whole picture. This rule applies to the behavior of people with less money than you, as well.

[1] If you're really interested, reading some history of colonialism would be good. I don't know your background, but if it involved typical high school U.S. history, you likely learned that colonialism was a sort of adventure-phase where westerners explored and planted flags and whatnot, mostly ignoring the commercial interests driving it. And a lot of the horror.

[2] Not even going to get in to that one, aside from saying that if leading contenders in the Republican primary can hate on U.S. culture, so can folks who actually got the pointy end of the stick.