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Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

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Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#61

Post by drags »

pjlegato wrote: post #56
drags wrote: post #55

I think it's interesting that we're 44 comments in and nobody has commented on how race fits into this. She sees herself as someone working her way up into a freelance writing career. Her customers, her bosses and her family view her as the kind of person unlikely to do anything more than what her parents and grandparents did: bounce around through low-wage, low-prestige jobs like Instacart their entire working life.…

Nobody has commented on how race fits into this because race is entirely irrelevant to the theme of the article. Her skin color is not relevant to her picking kale for a living. She's picking kale because she got two college degrees in non-marketable subjects, not because she's black. Not every topic contains a hidden narrative of latent racist oppression just waiting for an overeducated postmodernist to come along a…

Race is the theme of the article:

"Our national history is rife with examples of black Americans facing exclusion from labor movements, as well as general workforce discrimination. It’s not hard to see how the effects of these policies have trickled down. I see my family’s work history, rendered briefly here, as a particular kind of ingenuity necessary for black Americans."

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#62

Post by gearoidoc »

pjlegato wrote: post #60
_rpd wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there really was a social contract in place that said something along the lines of "Finish third level and you'll walk into a job thats better than flipping burgers" Was this ever true for a Masters in Creative Writing? My understanding is that this class of degree has always been a social signal for "my family is so wealthy, I will never need to work."

With the advent of government subsidized mass higher education in the US starting in the 1960s, that changed. Many high school teachers and college professors began heavily encouraging their idealistic, young, poor students to "follow their passion" and study creative writing and other non-marketable subjects. This group feels that it is vulgar and crass to even mention money or economics in the context of art or pur…

"This group feels that it is vulgar and crass to even mention money or economics in the context of art or pure academics" - I'm not sure where you're gleaning that from - my point was there was/still is a social contract in place that tells young people that graduating from a third level institution will be a signifier of above average intelligence and/or work ethic thus leading to at least better than working class job.

Perhaps you had the foresight (or your parents did) to see that such qualifications would drastically decrease in social value. Others didn't. Then again, maybe you just happen to work in tech and lack empathy for those who didn't luck out in their chosen industry.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#63

Post by pjlegato »

drags wrote: post #61
pjlegato wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has commented on how race fits into this because race is entirely irrelevant to the theme of the article. Her skin color is not relevant to her picking kale for a living. She's picking kale because she got two college degrees in non-marketable subjects, not because she's black. Not every topic contains a hidden narrative of latent racist oppression just waiting for an overeducated postmodernist to come along a…

Race is the theme of the article: "Our national history is rife with examples of black Americans facing exclusion from labor movements, as well as general workforce discrimination. It’s not hard to see how the effects of these policies have trickled down. I see my family’s work history, rendered briefly here, as a particular kind of ingenuity necessary for black Americans."

It's not at all, though she seems to think it is. It's about how indignant she is that she got two college degrees and still can't get a middle class job.

The headline is: "Two College Degrees Later, I Was Still Picking Kale For Rich People."

That happened because she studied creative writing, a largely non-marketable subject. Her being black is not relevant. If she had studied chemical engineering or dentistry or any of a large number of other in-demand subjects instead of creative writing, she'd easily have obtained a middle class job despite being black.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#64

Post by maerF0x0 »

gearoidoc wrote: post #29
maerF0x0 wrote: post #24

> I was nonetheless positioned only marginally better off than my grandparents >listing the indignities she felt working these jobs with a laconic intensity and steady determination: washing the house’s windows inside and out, cleaning the mattresses and box springs, scrubbing the floors on her knees, a lunch of a cheese sandwich and a glass of milk offered by a client that was quickly rejected, getting paid $3 a day…

I see your point but surely you agree peer comparison is fair? No doubt the author has things better than generations before (though you do have to factor in things like increased expectations as a cost for this) but if this was the only measure then social equality would be move much slower than it is.

In my opinion only equal actions should demand equal results. I imagine nobody working as a freelance writer, working for instacart, taking loans against a useless asset are doing very well in this society. Therefore the author's peers are likely doing roughly as well, and thus "fair".

Some sources of unfairness might be the disingenuous nature of post secondary education, selling assets (degrees) far beyond their value. Being lied to maybe the biggest claim the author has. But I dont see gender or race being a part of that claim. The lie is unfair irrespective.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#65

Post by pjlegato »

gearoidoc wrote: post #62
pjlegato wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the advent of government subsidized mass higher education in the US starting in the 1960s, that changed. Many high school teachers and college professors began heavily encouraging their idealistic, young, poor students to "follow their passion" and study creative writing and other non-marketable subjects. This group feels that it is vulgar and crass to even mention money or economics in the context of art or pur…

"This group feels that it is vulgar and crass to even mention money or economics in the context of art or pure academics" - I'm not sure where you're gleaning that from - my point was there was/still is a social contract in place that tells young people that graduating from a third level institution will be a signifier of above average intelligence and/or work ethic thus leading to at least better than working class…

No, actually, I speak from painfully learned experience, as a former poor student who is now the holder of a non-marketable university degree in history and philosophy, and a pile of student loan debt.

But my personal experience is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Let's keep the personal stereotyping and passive-aggresive insults out of this discussion.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#66

Post by chipsy »

cperciva wrote: post #17
Alex3917 wrote: post #10

I find it amusing that one of Instacart's competitors, TaskRabbit, is currently blanketing the NYC subway system with ads that say "We do chores. You live life." The implication being, at least the way I read it, that they consider their workforce to be perhaps slightly less than human.

I'm struggling to understand how you can possibly jump from "we do chores; you live life" to "our workers are subhuman". Are you saying that only subhumans do chores?

Cold logic. The advertisement defines life as something that is not doing chores. Therefore people who do chores are not living. Whether that makes them "subhuman" does involve some interpretation, but if you call someone "not alive" you aren't exactly complementing them.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#68

Post by chriskanan »

pjlegato wrote: post #38

The headline ("Two College Degrees Later, I Was Still Picking Kale For Rich People") is a statement of disappointed entitlement, of outrage over a belief that some implicit social contract has not been fulfilled. The reality is that just having "a degree" in a generic sense is no longer the magical ticket to a middle class lifestyle that it was in 1960. It's become too common and is no longer much of a differentiator…

I completely agree. It reminds me of this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/your-money/student-loans/2...

I think we need to do a far better job of informing students in high school about how their choice of major in college influences their income. At the very least, we need to discourage them from taking on large amounts of debt for majors where their expected income will be low. Even if we could convince them, many students probably don't know how hard it is to live off of $30-50k per year, and at that point in their lives (17-20 years old) they might argue that they would rather major in Women's Studies or Philosophy.

Unfortunately, I doubt colleges would allow substantial guidance in this area during "Introduction to College" classes that students take their Freshman year for a variety of reasons. Some professors would argue that college is not meant to prepare people for the workforce (it makes you a better citizen and more worldly), but that really hasn't been true for many years.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#69

Post by fleitz »

gearoidoc wrote: post #16
fleitz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did people stop hiring plumbers? It's difficult in North America to become a millionaire, but it's pretty trivial to escape poverty. What I often find is people would rather be poor than sell their skills to the highest bidder, eg. I know welders who refuse $60/hr jobs because they dislike the oil industry. Or train for jobs that actually pay, like plumbing.

Please explain how you believe its pretty trivial to escape poverty? A grossly ignorant statement that.

Step 1. Get a job. Step 2. Rent the cheapest place Step 3. Take a flagging course Step 4. Become a flagger. Step 5. Take a trades course. Step 6. Work for whoever pays the most.

Alternatively, Step 1. Go to public library Step 2. Use computer to learn web Dev/ something in tech. Step 3. sign up for freelance site. Step 4. Use the freelance work to acquire tech job

Alternatively, Step 1. Post cleaner ad on Craigslist that says you'll do laundry. Step 2. Make $15-$20 an hour.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#70

Post by fleitz »

chriskanan wrote: post #68
pjlegato wrote: post #38

The headline ("Two College Degrees Later, I Was Still Picking Kale For Rich People") is a statement of disappointed entitlement, of outrage over a belief that some implicit social contract has not been fulfilled. The reality is that just having "a degree" in a generic sense is no longer the magical ticket to a middle class lifestyle that it was in 1960. It's become too common and is no longer much of a differentiator…

I completely agree. It reminds me of this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/your-money/student-loans/2... I think we need to do a far better job of informing students in high school about how their choice of major in college influences their income. At the very least, we need to discourage them from taking on large amounts of debt for majors where their expected income will be low. Even if we could convince…

Yup, there's a lot of people driving beamers who complain about how their parents forced them into law, medicine, or engineering.
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