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The Tunguska Event

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Re: The Tunguska Event

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly suspect that our species is already on its way to inevitable extinction, and much more quickly than a few hundred years. Barring some science fiction scenarios, fertility has dropped below replacement and is of a nature where it never truly rises. Children who grow up in a low-fertility environment learn behaviors and personality traits that encourage and enhance the already-low fertility, and any who are…

Long ago I read "essai de prospective demographique"[1] written by French demographers. They were raising the concerns you mention and were trying to warn the public of a coming "demographic winter". So your point of view is not rare. That being said, even if a demographic winter would probably have very adverse consequences, as it is not clear how well the industrialized society would fare if the population was dras…

> There will always be pockets of population with high fertility,

What makes you say that? Is there some underlying principle I've failed to consider?

> I have hard time picturing how that could lead to the complete extinction of mankind.

It's simple math. Below-replacement fertility leads to extinction. More people die than are born, and since the original number is finite, the end number must be zero.

If you think that will not happen, what you're imagining is that the fertility rate will either rise at some point in the future, or at least plateau at whatever number leads to a stable population.

Why would they rise? If you grow up in a world where everyone around you has few children, then you grow up thinking/feeling that few children is the way things should be. You have few yourself. You might even have fewer than your parents' generation... but you'll rarely if ever have more. On average, you'll never have more.

Even in the fertility hot spots, this is true. They're above replacement fertility still, but each generation has a lower number. It's not exactly some sort of hidden trend, it's pretty basic.

> at the very least among highly religious communities.

It looks like the children of these communities break away from their religious upbringing at a higher rate than their pious siblings can replace with nephews and nieces. Especially in those religious communities that are unable to achieve a healthy economy... the FLDS communes that dispose of their sons, the ultraorthodox jews in their own self-imposed ghettos where there is little employment to be had.

> Even if as you suggest reproductive behavior is transmitted,

That's a little silly of me, actually. It must be the one behavior pattern that isn't transmissible.

> and simple natural selection will always, in the end, favor the reproductive behavior

The natural universe has no favorites. It does not preclude this sort of extinction. Those few who buck this trend will be starved for adequate mates at some point, and will raise their own children in a culture that ostracizes fertility...

Re: The Tunguska Event

#62

My favorite conspiracy theory on Tunguska: http://www.reformation.org/tesla-and-tunguska.html

The Tunguska+Tesla event is quite fascinating (the whole life of Tesla is actually). People love to make up a lot of theories and conspiracies, it's nothing new. What is particularly worrisome is that Tesla was a very brillant man and that he believed himself to have caused this. From the information that we have, it wasn't a marketing stunt by his entourage. The guy himself was working on this particle-beam for some…

This site[0] appears to provide a referenced timeline and breakdown of the feasibility of Tesla's particle beam weapon. The author's conclusion seems to be that, while the principle may be sound (particle beams do exist), in actual practice the energy required to meet Tesla's claims would be infeasible even in the modern era - and certainly would have been impossible in Tesla's day.

However, The "death ray" proper only appears to have been developed decades after Tunguska (Tesla mentions working on it in 1934, Tunguska was 1908[1]), so it seems to be out of the running as a possible catalyst. The Tesla Society, predictably, has a page on this[2] that links to a number of articles from the time[3] describing Tesla's claims about wireless energy transmission and its potential as a weapon.

Could Tesla's energy experiments have caused the Tunguska Event? That probably depends on the plausibility of his ideas about long-range power transmission.

Wireless tranmission of electricity is possible, however, that alone doesn't mean the idea scales. Unfortunately, because Tesla, finding an objective, scientifically grounded discussion of Tesla's ideas and technology given modern knowledge on the internet was difficult. Quora[4][5] implies that Tesla, for all his genius, simply didn't realize his process would have been too inefficient to work at the scales he envisioned. As with the "death ray," it seems the energy required would have been impossible[6].

Nikola Tesla also claimed to have created an earthquake generator - which was debunked on Mythbusters[7][8]. He also claimed to be in contact with aliens[8]. The truth about Nikola Tesla is, while he was an unparalleled genius, he was also sometimes spectacularly wrong.

[0]http://www.danielcelton.com/2015/01/13/is-teslas-particle-be...

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

[2]http://www.teslasociety.com/tunguska.htm

[3]http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tunguska.htm

[4]https://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-anyone-attempted-to-rebuild-...

[5]https://www.quora.com/Does-this-project-to-rebuild-Teslas-Wa...

[6]https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/14869/is-there-...

[7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla's_oscillator

[8]https://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/about-this-sh...

[9]http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tesla/esp_tesla_11.htm

Re: The Tunguska Event

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long ago I read "essai de prospective demographique"[1] written by French demographers. They were raising the concerns you mention and were trying to warn the public of a coming "demographic winter". So your point of view is not rare. That being said, even if a demographic winter would probably have very adverse consequences, as it is not clear how well the industrialized society would fare if the population was dras…

> There will always be pockets of population with high fertility, What makes you say that? Is there some underlying principle I've failed to consider? > I have hard time picturing how that could lead to the complete extinction of mankind. It's simple math. Below-replacement fertility leads to extinction. More people die than are born, and since the original number is finite, the end number must be zero. If you think…

> What makes you say that? Is there some underlying principle I've failed to consider?

Low fertility rates is a statistical rule. It's not absolute. There will always be people with high fertility, at the very least because they will be at the edge of the bell curve. Also again, look at religious communities, like the Amish. Those people do exist. Among seven billion human beings, you certainly can find a few millions that are very much willing to make babies. It only takes a small minority to ensure that the numbers will not go to zero.

> The natural universe has no favorites. It does not preclude this sort of extinction.

The lineage of people who don't have children will simply disappear, leaving room for the lineage of people who do. It's as simple as that.

> Why would they rise?

The fertility rate will rise because people with low fertility rate will die with no children. What will remain will be the children of people with high fertility rate, and presumably those children will have a similar reproductive behavior than their parents. Low fertility reproductive behavior will be "naturally" filtered out.

> Those few who buck this trend will be starved for adequate mates at some point, and will raise their own children in a culture that ostracizes fertility...

Fertility declines, but it's quite a stretch to talk about ostracization of fertility. And ostracization is not prohibition.

Re: The Tunguska Event

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tunguska+Tesla event is quite fascinating (the whole life of Tesla is actually). People love to make up a lot of theories and conspiracies, it's nothing new. What is particularly worrisome is that Tesla was a very brillant man and that he believed himself to have caused this. From the information that we have, it wasn't a marketing stunt by his entourage. The guy himself was working on this particle-beam for some…

This site[0] appears to provide a referenced timeline and breakdown of the feasibility of Tesla's particle beam weapon. The author's conclusion seems to be that, while the principle may be sound (particle beams do exist), in actual practice the energy required to meet Tesla's claims would be infeasible even in the modern era - and certainly would have been impossible in Tesla's day. However, The "death ray" proper on…

I'm wondering if Tesla's equipment may have provided a standing wave to ground the ionosphere or some such technobabble. Certainly he didn't wield the power to make such a blast. But the Earth has powers that large.

And Yeah Mythbusters. They 'busted' the myth than you can start a fire using a stick and a bow. Yet my Boy Scouts do this for fun all the time.

Re: The Tunguska Event

#65
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes. The professor is lecturing, and says, "The Sun will grow to be a red giant, destroying all life on Earth in about a billion years...." A distracted student suddenly sits up and cries out, "Oh my god!" The professor says, "What's wrong? A billion years is a long time, you know. Nothing to worry about." The student is visibly relief. "Oh, great! I thought you said a million years…

I strongly suspect that our species is already on its way to inevitable extinction, and much more quickly than a few hundred years. Barring some science fiction scenarios, fertility has dropped below replacement and is of a nature where it never truly rises. Children who grow up in a low-fertility environment learn behaviors and personality traits that encourage and enhance the already-low fertility, and any who are…

> Barring some science fiction scenarios, fertility has dropped below replacement and is of a nature where it never truly rises.

Its dropped because of shifting economic incentives. Its pretty simple to shift those incentives to shift it back the other way to some degree (and almost certain to happen if, for an extended period of time, the developed world sees negative overall growth counting both natural growth and immigration.)

> You can disagree, almost everyone does. But the implications of disagreement are bizarre, you must imagine some future where all 5th generation-only children wake up and say "I want 2.1 children" or 10 percent of those 5th generation children wake up and say "I want 20 children".

No, I just imagine a future where policymakers -- having known for generations the policy factors which promote low birth rate -- look at the situation in their countries, recognize that negative natural growth is no longer being offset by immigration, tweak the policies so that reproduction is more incentivized, resulting in the overall growth rate rising out of negative territory. Its not people magically waking up with different preferences, its people reacting to different situations with different policies and changing the payoff matrices people face in society with the same preferences.

Re: The Tunguska Event

#66
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Velocity matters too. E ~ mv^2 after all. I'm reminded of Killing Star by Charles R. Pellegrino and George Zebrowski. Even without aggressive aliens, stuff falling toward the galaxy's central black hole may get ejected at relativistic velocity. Very unlikely. But we wouldn't see it until it was almost here.

Well, we're getting photons and probably cosmic rays from Sagittarius A , so not that unlikely. :-) You're right about small mass but macroscopic objects though, since Sag A 's rotation is very sub-extremal, its mass is sufficiently high (higher mass means less curvature just outside the horizon), and its accretion structures and jets are sufficiently dim that there is essentially no chance for a rocky object to get…

Yes, I get that Sag A is pretty quiet. But there was an X-ray flash about 60 years ago, based on echos seen in Chandra images. Also, there is this: http://www.space.com/19748-hypervelocity-stars-milky-way.htm...

The impact description in Killing Star is similar to xkcd's, for what it's worth.

Re: The Tunguska Event

#67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This site[0] appears to provide a referenced timeline and breakdown of the feasibility of Tesla's particle beam weapon. The author's conclusion seems to be that, while the principle may be sound (particle beams do exist), in actual practice the energy required to meet Tesla's claims would be infeasible even in the modern era - and certainly would have been impossible in Tesla's day. However, The "death ray" proper on…

I'm wondering if Tesla's equipment may have provided a standing wave to ground the ionosphere or some such technobabble. Certainly he didn't wield the power to make such a blast. But the Earth has powers that large. And Yeah Mythbusters. They 'busted' the myth than you can start a fire using a stick and a bow. Yet my Boy Scouts do this for fun all the time.

Fair enough, although I saw them start a fire with a bow drill on an episode not too long ago. Report back when your Boy Scouts cause an earthquake with Tesla's oscillator.

Re: The Tunguska Event

#68
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low fertility doesn't lead to extinction in a few hundred years. Let's say the average is one child per woman (even places like Japan are above this), then it still takes 23 generations to reduce the global population to a thousand people, and a further ten generations to reduce to one. Use Japan's fertility rate and you can roughly double those numbers. I also don't see why disagreement has bizarre implications. Wor…

> World fertility rate is still somewhat above replacement, World fertility is only above replacement because of a few hot spots that have high fertility. As those cultures are converted to something more western-looking, fertility plummets. You're postulating that, somehow, this will reverse and those places will convert the west to something not-so-western-looking, or that they'll fail to convert. Both of these see…

"When there are only one thousand people, you still expect those who grew up in such an environment will still somehow manage a fertility rate of 1.0?"

OK, so you're going to declare that not only will fertility drop way lower than it is today, but that even in a hypothetical future where overpopulation is not a problem it must continue to drop.

And somehow my ideas are "miracles" but your ideas are obviously true.

I get the impression you're not actually open to ideas on this.

Re: The Tunguska Event

#69
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> World fertility rate is still somewhat above replacement, World fertility is only above replacement because of a few hot spots that have high fertility. As those cultures are converted to something more western-looking, fertility plummets. You're postulating that, somehow, this will reverse and those places will convert the west to something not-so-western-looking, or that they'll fail to convert. Both of these see…

"When there are only one thousand people, you still expect those who grew up in such an environment will still somehow manage a fertility rate of 1.0?" OK, so you're going to declare that not only will fertility drop way lower than it is today, but that even in a hypothetical future where overpopulation is not a problem it must continue to drop. And somehow my ideas are "miracles" but your ideas are obviously true. I…

> but that even in a hypothetical future where overpopulation is not a problem it must continue to drop.

This supposes that population is currently dropping because of overpopulation. I see no evidence of that. China is your best candidate as a counterexample, and it falls flat.

They've rescinded the one child policy. If you are right, fertility should climb there... but the initial indications are that a people trained to be low-fertility continue to be low-fertility even after the training stops.

I'm not exactly shocked.

Re: The Tunguska Event

#70
post #5

> Given a long enough time period, there is a nearly 100-percent chance an asteroid large enough to destroy most life on Earth will impact our planet. No worries. Since quantum mechanics dictates that, given enough time, anything can happen, we can also say that given a long enough time period, life will spontaneously reappear.

A more interesting question is : what kind of delay is worth worrying about? I mean, for instance it is known that life will remain possible on Earth for about 500 million years, after which the Sun will be too bright. We don't seriously worry about it, since so many things can happen in half a billion years that it does not make much sense to try to plan or predict anything in such a timeframe. Similarly, I personal…

The sun getting bright is different than a meteorite impact. The latter has a Poisson distribution; a big one could hit next year, and the one following that in 10, but it also could be many thousands of years before the next big hit.

On the other hand, if our understanding of astrophysics is even remotely correct, the sun will not get too bright for the first 100,000 years. So, it makes perfect sense to not worry about the sun now, as it will not happen soon.

As to the limit: the Dutch design their sea defences for “once in a 10,000 year” events and their river defences for “once in 1,250 year” events (http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2005/2005_30-39/2005-3..., http://blog.longnow.org/02011/03/09/the-10000-year-storm/)

I also expect some governments have spent time thinking of what to do in case of impending “once in 500 million years” events (probably lumped together with all smaller ‘end of life on earth’ events. The big question here will be: (when) do you tell the public?)

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