Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

espresso.repubblica.it

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 105 posts

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#61

Post by chrononaut »

ApplaudPumice wrote: post #29

Hacker News is too USA-centric. What if Italy spied the USA? Including the metadata of all citizens' calls? It's that ok?

Is it unreasonable to specifically collect information on non-citizens? Perhaps. Is it unexpected? I don't think so. Most current threats are currently perceived to originate from non-military, non-governmental entities if the media is to be believed. I would expect all countries for which I am not a citizen to compile an in-depth dossier of me at any opportunity they have, assuming their intentions and incentives align with any other country conducting the same activity.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#62

Post by vasundhar »

pnathan wrote: post #8
duncan_bayne wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I sort of thought that's its legitimate purpose (as opposed to domestic surveillance).

Yes, this is what it's chartered to do. Now, there exists a group of people, of which Assange is one (as far as I can tell), who believe that spying is wrong , and governmental secrecy is wrong . Thus this particular Wikileaks release, and, afaict, a lot of the Wikileaks effort has gone into promulgating that ideological goal. I would note that governmental transparency is pursued by multiple political groups across…

Why don't we let the US/ UK Rule the world then ? I hope you understand which division NSA belongs to

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#63

Post by odiroot »

apsec112 wrote: post #4

Spying on other governments is the NSA's job. The problem is when it starts spying on ordinary citizens.

Conversely it's quite the opposite. Most of the world would be okay with an American agency spying on Americans. It's the spying on all others part that's controversial.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#64

Post by argonaut »

wavefunction wrote: post #58
argonaut wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corruption. Obviously we're both speculating here, but accountability is a serious problem with NGOs, along with corruption/graft/general-wastefulness. So if the US suspected massive (tens of millions of dollars, or more) corruption, that's a plausible reason. I'm not saying it's likely, just that there are possible reasons out there in the world.

I dunno, the US Government had billions of USD go mysteriously missing during our occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan so it seems unlikely that the powers that be are too concerned about corruption for the sake of stamping out corruption.

Total non sequitur. Just because X does Y in A context does not mean it isn't concerned about Y in B context. Not to mention it's also plausible some of that money went to black budget projects.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#65

Post by _yosefk »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #55
abecedarius wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, spying to promote the interests of the people of the U.S. is legitimate in a world with other states with armies and the occasional bin Laden, etc. That's different from spying to promote the power of the executive, its fave corporations, the spies themselves, their counterparts in other nations, and who knows what else. The government is in theory our employees, and I feel more threatened by these employees who…

> The government is in theory our employees Thought experiment: what would happen if you exercised any discretion in whether to continue employing them, or even how much of your income you pay them?

Interestingly, this thought experiment kinda works for company managers, too (try firing the CEO of a company where you're a minority investor.) Perhaps things converge to a state where, regardless of who's the nominal owner (citizens/stockholders/etc.), we are ruled by mostly unaccountable managers.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#66

Post by wildmusings »

guelo wrote: post #23
pnathan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is what it's chartered to do. Now, there exists a group of people, of which Assange is one (as far as I can tell), who believe that spying is wrong , and governmental secrecy is wrong . Thus this particular Wikileaks release, and, afaict, a lot of the Wikileaks effort has gone into promulgating that ideological goal. I would note that governmental transparency is pursued by multiple political groups across…

Spying is illegal in most countries, including the United States. If an Italian spy were caught here stealing Obama's communications he would be put in jail for a lengthy term. If an American spy were caught in Italy they would also be arrested and sent to jail. This whole concept that it's OK for my country to spy on others is strange and hypocritical. It is not heroic, legal, or moral, to spy on other countries unl…

There are no rules among nation-states. Any that you believe to exist, exist only at the whim of the most powerful states in the system. The only true international law is the law of the jungle. Many argue otherwise, but the minute that the survival of their freedom or prosperity hangs in the balance, they would unleash the most barbarous terrors on their enemy for a chance of victory.

A nation that doesn't spy on others is irrational and suicidal. Your enemy will not reciprocate your naivete. They will exploit it and enslave you.

A nation that doesn't punish spies (or their masters) caught within its territories is similarly irrational. The fear of death (or imprisonment) makes your enemy cautious and less effective.

The only morality in the international system is the morality of your own victory and what you do with it. In victory, you can spread peace, freedom, and prosperity to your heart's content. In defeat, your ideals are worthless.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#68

Post by visarga »

wildmusings wrote: post #66
guelo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spying is illegal in most countries, including the United States. If an Italian spy were caught here stealing Obama's communications he would be put in jail for a lengthy term. If an American spy were caught in Italy they would also be arrested and sent to jail. This whole concept that it's OK for my country to spy on others is strange and hypocritical. It is not heroic, legal, or moral, to spy on other countries unl…

There are no rules among nation-states. Any that you believe to exist, exist only at the whim of the most powerful states in the system. The only true international law is the law of the jungle. Many argue otherwise, but the minute that the survival of their freedom or prosperity hangs in the balance, they would unleash the most barbarous terrors on their enemy for a chance of victory. A nation that doesn't spy on ot…

> The only true international law is the law of the jungle.

Probably you are thinking of the "survival of the fittest", but that doesn't mean only survival of the fittest country, it also means survival of the fittest alliance of countries. In that sense, cooperation and reciprocal help leads to increased chance of success for a country.

When applying to humans, "the law of the jungle" is just half the story. People who are in groups that cooperate well are more likely to survive, too. Humans are social animals, we cooperate to get things done. Just being the fittest one single man does not necessarily make you more successful.

A better model for survival is ecology, which puts a big emphasis on the complex interdependency of species and individuals.

Or, to make an analogy: even if a cancer cell is the most fit to reproduce in the body, it will soon lead to the demise of its own organism and, as a consequence, live shorter than a regular cooperating cell.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#69

Post by ascorbic »

qrendel wrote: post #20
chatmasta wrote: post #14

Julian Assange has some "big balls." Either he really likes pushing his luck, or his end game is way bigger than anyone realizes. He was just starting to curry the favor of the general public. He was the subject of a prominent biopic, he received a positive resolution from the UN. He has a lot of supporters, but they're not all fully sold on his philosophy. Many of his supporters might consider this leak not in the s…

Considering they recently chose to completely ignore the UN opinion on his "arbitrary detention," on top of everything else in the past - false rape accusations, ignoring his asylum status - I don't see what more he really has to lose. What are the odds he possibly gets out of this without torture, assassination, or life in prison? They've done everything possible to turn him into an actual enemy, rather than the edi…

Great, you know they're false accusations! I'm assuming you weren't there, so you must have some good evidence. I hope you've handed it over to the defence team.

Re: WikiLeaks reveals the NSA spied on Berlusconi and his closest advisors

#70

Post by jeffwass »

jstalin wrote: post #43

Strange. Wikileaks never seems to leak anything from other countries, such as Russia or China.

The more interesting question is what wikileaks would do if they received some embarrassing leaks related to Ecuador.

Would they choose not release the leaks, given Ecuador's provision of embassy asylum to Assange?

Post reply on HN