I hope Sweden leaves too, and/or Brexit causes the union to collapse. We have paid billions in aid to the poorer EU countries for years and all we get back are refugees, Romanian beggars and criminal gangs from the Balkans.
EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
61–70 of 71 posts
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
IIRC a fair few of those work in finance in the City, things are going to be… interesting.
Indeed. Border control policies end up being a tit for tat affair. The only reason EU countries have border controls on flights landing in their respective countries from the UK, is because the UK applies border controls on their citizens entering the United Kingdom. I can fly from Germany to Spain without ever showing my passport at my destination, but if I fly to and from the UK I need to show my passport on both s…
If you are from the EU any EU ID is sufficient to enter the uk you do not need a passport.
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty. Since 1975 there is a currency (and monetary policy), there is a proper and separate legal system, there a real political process with a parliament and an executive and many other changes. Trade is now only a part of a much bigger story. In 1975 there wasn't even a flag - the circle…
> The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty Under its current name, yes, but the European Union we know today is really the successor to the European Communities of yesteryear. > Since 1975 there is a currency (and monetary policy), Which the UK doesn't participate in, mostly. > there is a proper and separate legal system, Th…
Most of these ultimately come down to a Ship of Theseus problem - how many changes can something be subject to until it becomes a different thing altogether? Is the European Parliament of today really the same as the unelected body of 1962? Is the judicial system really the same one?
Clearly you think that it is the same body. I hope you can also see how others could be cynical about this expanded scope and view it as surprising and undesirable.
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty. Since 1975 there is a currency (and monetary policy), there is a proper and separate legal system, there a real political process with a parliament and an executive and many other changes. Trade is now only a part of a much bigger story. In 1975 there wasn't even a flag - the circle…
> The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty Under its current name, yes, but the European Union we know today is really the successor to the European Communities of yesteryear. > Since 1975 there is a currency (and monetary policy), Which the UK doesn't participate in, mostly. > there is a proper and separate legal system, Th…
In the UK, the EU is a topic like vaccines, evolution or climate change is in other countries. A decades long torrent of anti-EU propaganda has left people adrift from any bedrock of facts to begin a discussion.
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The UK most likely will still remain within the EEA even if they'll leave the EU What's your reasoning for this? I think it might be attractive versus simply leaving altogether, but who says that's what'll happen? Consider that the EEA might be unpalatable to people against EU membership due to migration.
That's why I said most likely, the immigration from the EU isn't an actual problem, not as far as the "problematic" immigration into the UK goes. EU individuals do not make the bulk of the economic immigration into the UK while making the majority of the high paid migrant workers. If the UK want to deal with immigration "family" visa's and bogus work permits for people who end up earning below the minimum wage is a f…
> That's why I said most likely, the immigration from the EU isn't an actual problem, not as far as the "problematic" immigration into the UK goes.
Perhaps, but I'm not worrying about actual problems here, but rather public perception.
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#66Worth noting this is only happening because the British electoral system is broken. A small anti-EU, right-wing party could have stolen just enough votes on this issue to turn the tide on the two party system result due to the brain damage of first-past-the-post[1], so the main right-wing party started this hare-brained scheme in motion to head that off. This, in a nation where PR and full democracy is derided becaus…
Indeed it is happening because the political system is broken, but in the exact opposite way from how you have described. "A small anti-EU, right wing party" - UKIP got nearly 13% of the vote and would probably be part of a coalition government with the Conservative party if we had a proportional representation system. Instead they have 1 MP. The SNP got only 8.6% of the vote and they have 56 MPs. The referendum is h…
Since labour would have won (by one seat) if it weren't for libdem voters coming back to Labour and thereby handing 12 threeway-split seats to the conservatives, not to mention the places that Labour to UKIP defections would have came back to them as second votes, a replay with the same votes but different rules wouldn't have been a con-ukip coalition government.
Though obviously, if the rules changed then everything would change, new parties, new alliances, less tactical vote buying, more democracy.
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#67Worth noting this is only happening because the British electoral system is broken. A small anti-EU, right-wing party could have stolen just enough votes on this issue to turn the tide on the two party system result due to the brain damage of first-past-the-post[1], so the main right-wing party started this hare-brained scheme in motion to head that off. This, in a nation where PR and full democracy is derided becaus…
The Tories have been squabbling about this for years, well before UKIP came on the scene.
Yes, and as long as the squabble stayed internal, it didn't affect their first-past-the-post results.
Traditional political logic was that every vote for UKIP was a Tory vote wasted. In reality, they wasted quite a few Labour votes as well.
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The EU simply did not exist in 1975. That's not just a technical comment: it really didn't exist until 1992 with the Maastricht Treaty Under its current name, yes, but the European Union we know today is really the successor to the European Communities of yesteryear. > Since 1975 there is a currency (and monetary policy), Which the UK doesn't participate in, mostly. > there is a proper and separate legal system, Th…
Most of these ultimately come down to a Ship of Theseus problem - how many changes can something be subject to until it becomes a different thing altogether? Is the European Parliament of today really the same as the unelected body of 1962? Is the judicial system really the same one? Clearly you think that it is the same body. I hope you can also see how others could be cynical about this expanded scope and view it a…
Yeah, I can understand that. Undoubtedly the EU has changed over time, and many people might not like those changes. I'm just suspicious of the claim that the EU is very different from the EC voted on in 1975. In some respects it is, but I feel it is misleading to look back and say it was just something like a loose free trade agreement. It was much more than that even when we originally joined, though it could be argued that the general public weren't very aware of it.
On the other hand, I don't know if the general public understands the EU now, either.
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
That sounds like you're treating this as a game. Fact of the matter is, if we leave the EU, a whole bunch of minorities lose a whole bunch of human rights protections. When this happens, the ability to lead a life of any sort decreases and suicide rates increase. The UK being "kinda-sorta part of the EU" is not a wonderful thing, but being out of it entirely would be far worse for real people. Fight for more integrat…
Cameron started treating it as a game. I just want to play in such a way to make it best for europe. I am sick of British blackmail. Pax Britanica is over. It is a small regional player. And I want it seen treated as. such. And if minority protections are so important said minorities should have done more for preventing him to come to power.
Britain is the second largest economy in Europe, the fifth largest economy in the world, the fourth military power, a leading member of the G7 and one of five permanent seat-holders on the UN Security Council.
Hardly a "small regional player".
Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which pre referendum Scottish promises haven't been fulfilled?
The greater autonomy of Scotland. Devolution max. There is barely something new done from what I read in the news
The Scotland Bill is currently working its way through the House of Lords (currently at committee stage) - http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/scotland.html
The Bill recognises the Scottish Parliament and a Scottish government as permanent among UK's constitutional arrangements, with a referendum required before either can be abolished. In addition new powers/control given to the Scottish government include:
* The ability to set Income Tax rates and bands * Control over several benefits and removable taxes including Air Passenger Duty and Disability Living Allowance * The right to receive half of the VAT raised in Scotland * Extended powers over Employment Support and Universal Credit