Interesting discussion here about whether candidates and companies should reveal their range up front. Personally I would not quit freelancing except for something really exceptional, so I lean toward talking numbers immediately. That saves my time, but I feel like it's actually pretty unreasonable. In the freelancing world, we suffer from a "market for lemons" situation where the bad freelancers hurt everyone's rates. To charge a premium rate you need prospects to trust you a priori, which probably means referrals. I suppose candidates for full-time jobs suffer the same thing: asking for an "unrealistic" salary at the beginning of the process, when you are an unknown, just gets you thrown out. I suppose the way around this is to have an insider who will vouch for you. Any other advice on being able to ask for a high salary and not be dismissed?
High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
61–70 of 236 posts
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Didn't work for me. Neither did the google link thing. Wonder what's going on here. :(
Neither did the browser extension "Wait! Google sent me." which was built just for these paywall sites. It looks like Google stopped punishing journalist sites that do this, or the sites don't care anymore.
I think Google has some sort of "push" system for publishers to use now.
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#63The moral of the story: never, never, NEVER answer questions about your salary to a recruiter. It firmly pigeonholes your next salary to your current one, instead of the value you bring to a company. Patrick MacKenzie's article on salary negotiations is excellent (I would maybe even say "required") reading on the subject.
Recruiter here. I think: "The moral of the story: never, never, NEVER answer questions about your salary to a recruiter." is pretty simplistic and naive. You simply have to figure out how to get what you want. If you want 180 and currently make 140 and a recruiter asks what you make, just say something like "my expectation for my next role is around 180". You say that and you both probably get what you want and save…
Not a recruiter but I've gotten all but my current job through recruiters.
I think the quoted moral still applies - you obviously have to disclose what you want to earn if you expect to actually earn that. However, what I made at my last job had zero bearing on my expected salary at my current job. If a recruiter is just trying to find out what I want, they can ask. However, I think more often than not they're getting paid on the spread and if they can place me in a job with a cap of $180 for $150, they'll do so and pocket whatever their percentage of the spread is.[0]
[0] I know this isn't how all recruiters are paid, but many are.
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#64The moral of the story: never, never, NEVER answer questions about your salary to a recruiter. It firmly pigeonholes your next salary to your current one, instead of the value you bring to a company. Patrick MacKenzie's article on salary negotiations is excellent (I would maybe even say "required") reading on the subject.
Recruiter here. I think: "The moral of the story: never, never, NEVER answer questions about your salary to a recruiter." is pretty simplistic and naive. You simply have to figure out how to get what you want. If you want 180 and currently make 140 and a recruiter asks what you make, just say something like "my expectation for my next role is around 180". You say that and you both probably get what you want and save…
Exactly! I wish more recruiters thought like this. There's absolutely no point for either the recruiter or the candidate to go through an interview process only to get an offer that won't be accepted. For instance, I'm working at a great place right now, and it would take a significant bump in salary to get me to even consider moving.
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#65Companies that hire like this will typically be the first to layoff employees when shareholders are not happy. They often struggle to meet customer expectations over time. This is particularly true if they have never ending layers of management going up the chain. That's why startup culture is so appealing to many.
If you buy at Walmart prices, expect Walmart quality.
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#66This is a surprise, said no one ever. Sometimes companies will pay for experience but often they'll hire someone younger who screws up more because they cost less.
They might think it costs less, but I argue that's misleading. You need to factor in the mistakes, the longer training, slower adaptation, inefficiency, and a client's growing dissatisfaction with the product because of it all.
I don't think it's misleading. Companies know mistakes cost money and experience doesn't always associate with better productivity.
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#67The moral of the story: never, never, NEVER answer questions about your salary to a recruiter. It firmly pigeonholes your next salary to your current one, instead of the value you bring to a company. Patrick MacKenzie's article on salary negotiations is excellent (I would maybe even say "required") reading on the subject.
This one? http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
That's the one. Probably Patrick's best piece of advice, in terms of broad application.
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've tried that (nicely), but it backfires too. Some companies are either old school or clueless on what to offer and have treated me pretty badly and called off interviewing further well into interviewing due not telling them that. E.g. "We've NEVER had someone be so stubborn about sharing their salary". I realize those places were likely toxic, but it can be never-wracking to someone who needs a job.
"We've NEVER had someone be so stubborn about sharing their salary". If I heard that and felt I was going to walk away anyway, I'd be tempted to throw back "How much do you make?" And watch to see if they squirm to not share. If they came back with "what I make has nothing to do with this position you're being interviewed for" come back with "then neither does my previous salaries, if they do then I need to know how…
The techniques in Patrick's post are a less abrasive version of this.
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, it's Chicago too, unless you're working on low-latency finance stuff.
Untrue. I lived and worked as a software engineer in Chicago (downtown) for a number of years before moving westward. Most mid-career developers I knew there were comfortably in the 100's and only one worked at the CME ('finance stuff', in C++). It boils down to simple economic rules. If you're good at developing software, there aren't a lot of people like you looking for a job and the market has a high demand for yo…
Which area are you in? Your LinkedIn profile suggests financial/webdev work.
I've been doing embedded/firmware engineering in this area my entire career and, right now, 100K is typical for a senior position with very few positions available over 125K. The only way to go higher is to consult.
Perhaps it's the glut of ex-Moto/ATT/Lucent/Tellabs people floating around. I dunno.
Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters
#70I expect there is more than one factor at work here.
I've known folks who "grew up" in a single company; joined out of college, worked there 15+ years, got annual raises, then got laid off and then couldn't find work at their previous salary. And the expectation of an annual raise kept forcing up their salary but I don't think the company was actually evaluating whether or not the person was getting more valuable over time.
I once had an interesting conversation with a recruiter who wanted me to pony up my current compensation. I asked, "Why is that relevant? You are the one with the job, and you are willing to pay some amount for someone to do that job, isn't it up to me to decide if I would be willing to do that job at the price offered?" There are jobs I would do for free, and jobs that you almost couldn't pay me enough to take, and that has nothing at all to do with what I'm currently being paid.
And if someone insists, I really do think they are looking to have something on paper that they can point to which will give them a safe "out" for hiring someone else while minimizing lawsuits. So much safer than "we are looking for someone who has more time to spend in this position", or "we were really hoping for a masculine point of view", or "we don't think you could relate culturally to our customers." All of which would violate the equal opportunity guidelines.