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Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

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Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#61

Post by tptacek »

Zigurd wrote: post #56
raverbashing wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote is "claim the flight, travelling well above the standard aviation height at 45,000 feet and without a filed flight plan" If it flew below FL660 it should be inside controlled airspace, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace_class#United_Kingdom However the flight plan might have been filled through defense channels rather than civilian ones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_plan

That would be having it both ways: Tptacek claims this isn't kidnapping because the plane is a DoJ asset, at least nominally. So it would not need DoD secrecy.

I think I'm saying it isn't kidnapping because there is no evidence at all of an attempt to kidnap Snowden.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#62

Post by canistr »

ghrifter wrote: post #23
vlunkr wrote: post #10

I really hope they pardon him eventually. I could be wrong, but don't most americans support what he did? EDIT: you are probably all correct, plenty of people don't understand/care who he is or what he stands for. I still wish the government would recognize that the NSA is acting unconstitutionally and he called them out on it.

Most "tech savvy" people support him and how he made us aware of the NSA bs, but a lot of normal people who just watch the news view him as a "traitor" to 'Murica (America). Sadly, people think "I have nothing to hide, so I don't care if the government/NSA monitors my internet usage/history/etc". Personally, I think the terrorists have won in a small sense. TSA is a joke (American airport security), NSA monitors ever…

I wouldn't conflate tech-savviness with being a Snowden-supporter.

And I wouldn't suggest people suddenly align themselves one way or the other based on the premise of tech-savviness, education-level, political-savviness, etc.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#63

Post by tptacek »

scrollaway wrote: post #60
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, we don't know that Snowden is harmless, even now. Most of what we know about Snowden comes from media stories, all of which are operating on incomplete information. More importantly, back in 2013, we --- including the USG --- knew far less than we know now. (The question of whether Snowden is "harmless" is separable from the question of whether his actions are defensible or justified .)

Snowden has been far more independently active since his asylum. He even maintains a twitter account. It's not like his entire life is filtered through the media.

I understand that (believe me; get RT'd by him sometime and see what happens to your mentions). But add up everything he's said publicly and you still don't have a complete picture of what he had, who he gave it to, and who got what.

I'm not suggesting that anything nefarious happened. I do not think Snowden is an FSB operative. I think he grabbed a giant tranche of documents, few of which he actually read, and handed them off to a small set of reporters he believed to be trustworthy.

But the USG has an interest (a) in confirming that and (b) containing the damage.

By the estimation of literally everyone involved, Snowden took documents whose publication isn't in the public interest. Snowden and his informal team of assistants have charged themselves with protecting intelligence secrets. It's not crazy to think that the USG might want to relieve Snowden of that role.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#64

Post by tptacek »

vidarh wrote: post #55
tptacek wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I understand this comment correctly, you're suggesting that the DOJ was going to fly Snowden to CPD Homan Square?

He is suggesting that there's less and less reason to presume that US law enforcement intend to act lawfully.

Well, I've been sold on that idea since the US started concealing the existence of the Roswell aliens.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#65

Post by tptacek »

mc32 wrote: post #59
tptacek wrote: post #22

The craft was used in controversial US ‘rendition’ missions This is apparently true, but misleading. The specific plane we're discussing was used by the CIA, but by this point had been transferred to DOJ for some time. It's also misleading to use the word "rendition" as a shorthand for "extraordinary rendition" (which is itself newspeak for "kidnapping"). "Rendition" itself is simply the process of effectuating extra…

Choosing Scotland over the more usual U.K. or British, is peculiar. It's like saying a Russian aircraft violated Alaskan airspace rather than US airspace. This choice is possibly indicative of other subsurface politics.

Scotland is the UK. Scotland's airspace is managed by the UK central government. This is like saying "flying over Maine, rather than over the more typical USA, is suggestive of subsurface politics".

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#66

Post by ceejayoz »

strictnein wrote: post #42
SuperChihuahua wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we sure that he didn't leak anything else to the Russians?

No, no one is sure about that. It's very unlikely that the Russians don't have copies of everything he took, unless you think he and Greenwald, et al are somehow masters of infosec that could withstand the actions of the FSB, SVR, etc.

You don't have to be an infosec master.

According to Snowden, he didn't take the files with him to Russia in the first place. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/world/snowden-says-he-took...

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#67

Post by krapp »

scrollaway wrote: post #60
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, we don't know that Snowden is harmless, even now. Most of what we know about Snowden comes from media stories, all of which are operating on incomplete information. More importantly, back in 2013, we --- including the USG --- knew far less than we know now. (The question of whether Snowden is "harmless" is separable from the question of whether his actions are defensible or justified .)

Snowden has been far more independently active since his asylum. He even maintains a twitter account. It's not like his entire life is filtered through the media.

Not to be paranoid and cynical, but we don't actually know that Edward Snowden, personally, is still maintaining that account, even though the account was verified.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#68

Post by uremog »

wavefunction wrote: post #28
doe88 wrote: post #5

Not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker. -- Obama 6/27/13 http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/27/19166043-obama... He's true though, it wasn't jets.

Well, it's likely it was a jet airplane as the altitude of the flight was 45,000. I suppose in this usage it was implied to be fighter-jets.

Everything I said was true, from a certain point of view.

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#69

Post by mtgx »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #8

One thing I don't understand - why would the US care? Why expend resources on trying to capture Snowden? He's basically harmless at this point - he's passed all the information he had to few journalists (which would be a better target now) and there's no way anyone will ever let him near anything more secret than grandma's cookies recipe. Besides petty vengeance, what's the point?

Because he can still talk and express himself about surveillance issues, and they know he has a following (now even on Twitter).

Re: Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden

#70

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

danielvf wrote: post #32
TeMPOraL wrote: post #8

One thing I don't understand - why would the US care? Why expend resources on trying to capture Snowden? He's basically harmless at this point - he's passed all the information he had to few journalists (which would be a better target now) and there's no way anyone will ever let him near anything more secret than grandma's cookies recipe. Besides petty vengeance, what's the point?

Four reasons off the top of my head: 1. There's no guarantee that he acted alone and or without outside sponsorship. 2. There's no guarantee that all the information that he took was released publicly. It would be helpful to know the extent of what was taken, and who else knows it. 3. It would be helpful to know what other intelligence services have asked him/taken from him. 4 "To encourage the others"

We don't know what he knows. It is entirely likely that he has information - or had access to information - that could have serious national security ramifications, perhaps as a bargaining chip.

The NSA could guess what he had access to, but it's harder to know what he still has. That's a very scary known unknown.

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