Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show • Hacker News Board

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#61

Post by ptaipale » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:20 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #10

kasey_junk wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of how easy it is to spin that politically. "Why did crime rates go up? Because 20% of our patrol officers were stuck in a garage waiting for camera techs at any given time." Also remember that many American cities finances are in a shambles (and Chicago is a prime example). Hiring enough techs or more officers to make up the difference your rules will require is simply not an option. I don't disagree with the…

The spin on the other side would be just as intuitive: "Our police officers are more concerned with getting away with abuse of power than following the law they're supposed to enforce, and as a result, tens (to hundreds) of millions in taxpayer money is being spent on lawsuit payouts, essentially a bailout for bad behavior." While I agree that cameras should be required and intentional tampering a crime, I think beha…

> "blue wall of silence" would become a very vocal supporter of police reform to identify and get rid of bad apples that threaten everybody's pension

This sounds like collective punishment - don't know about America, but over here, it would be not possible due to human rights treaties and legislation. The trade union or police would challenge this in a court and government would back down from such threats immediately.

(Hey, even cops are human. Especially they are human. So even they have human rights.)

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#62

Post by colanderman » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:22 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #21

Though I agree that this behavior is reprehensible and probably criminal, the comments here seem to miss at least some of the human dynamic here. I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure. Saying that this is what cops signed up fo…

Being a police officer isn't exactly like other jobs. You are granted powers (killing, detainment, seizure, trespass) which are forbidden to any other citizen. You want to be special, you can deal with a nannycam.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#63

Post by AndrewUnmuted » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:22 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #21

Though I agree that this behavior is reprehensible and probably criminal, the comments here seem to miss at least some of the human dynamic here. I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure. Saying that this is what cops signed up fo…

> the cops in question didn't sign up to work in an environment like that at all.

But you're wrong -- cops have always had to face public scrutiny of their actions. The words they speak and the asses they beat have always been capable of being used as evidence in court.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#64

Post by logn » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:23 PM UTC

elthran wrote: post #16

bdisraeli wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no national body that oversees police, but Chicago has the Independent Police Review Authority. However IPRA rarely upholds complaints against police (it's staffed by ex-cops and other people connected to the police), and recently an investigator was fired after finding a shooting unjustified[1]. [1] http://www.wbez.org/news/city-fires-investigator-who-found-c...

Has this been proposed at all? Is there anything weird about american policing/law that would mean a national, federal agency wouldn't be able to take on this role?

It can be done. The DOJ does this on a case-by-case basis. And FBI has jurisdiction to investigate some of these things. Bernie Sanders has suggested requiring all police killings to be investigated.

Most Constitutional rights extend to people against the states. So if your civil rights (due process, etc) have been violated, it's against federal law.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#65

Post by mtgx » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:24 PM UTC

This is what some of us feared with the push for police bodycams, that they will eventually use the evidence only when it suits the police, but not anyone else, which could generally be even worse than not having the video at all. The footage should be required to be uploaded to a federal agency's cloud every 24h.

And now some states are even giving the police permission to do that:

http://www.wthr.com/story/31063724/bill-allowing-police-to-w...

This is why Larry Lessig has been so right about the need to fix democracy first. As long as that isn't fixed first, the corrupt systems will always infect even the best ideas and policies that manage to pass at the federal or state level. You need proper democracy so people can easily throw out leaders who side with those with power and protect them.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#66

Post by grandalf » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:27 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #21

Though I agree that this behavior is reprehensible and probably criminal, the comments here seem to miss at least some of the human dynamic here. I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure. Saying that this is what cops signed up fo…

We trust cops to protect the weak, to wield and use firearms, and to enforce our laws. This puts them in a tremendous position to abuse their power.

The recording devices were installed precisely because abuses of power and criminal activity were already a big problem. The thugs destroyed the recording devices because they want to continue abusing their power, period.

For an honest cop, the recordings offer proof of proper conduct. In the setting of lethal force, the truth is very important. If I follow protocol and shoot someone, I hope there is a video showing that I followed the playbook perfectly.

I've been bullied by cops a few times. Their job is tough, but it strikes me as odd that they bully someone like me, an obviously harmless, non-criminal.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#67

Post by cnvogel » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:29 PM UTC

CoachRufus87 wrote: post #58

CPLX wrote: post #21

Though I agree that this behavior is reprehensible and probably criminal, the comments here seem to miss at least some of the human dynamic here. I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure. Saying that this is what cops signed up fo…

There are many folks who would love to become commercial pilots.

...on the other hand, the cockpit voice recorders a) only record a loop of a few hours, so after an intercontinental flight they will have overwritten everything on the first half of the flight and b) there's a button to erase them.

https://www.google.de/search?q=a320+cockpit+voice+recorder+p...

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#68

Post by darpa_escapee » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:29 PM UTC

deskamess wrote: post #27

ghufran_syed wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of what stops police from routinely infringing civil rights in the pursuit of justice is the legal doctrine that evidence obtained illegally is inadmissible, as is all evidence gained from further (lawful) investigation based on that evidence [1]. what is needed is a law that operates in a similar way, that states that in any lawsuit or complaint against the police, there is a presumption of guilt on the part of…

"Presumption of guilt" - that's not going to fly is it? I think the selective absence of evidence where it would normally exist is something that a jury (or investigating organization) should consider within the totality of the evidence presented. That way we can go start from a point of innocence and work our way through. Why are there options to turn the audio off anyway? In the grand scheme of things what you are…

If you don't want additional scrutiny, are you going to sign a contract with a supplier of recording equipment that can't be turned off?

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#69

Post by trowawee » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:30 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #21

Though I agree that this behavior is reprehensible and probably criminal, the comments here seem to miss at least some of the human dynamic here. I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure. Saying that this is what cops signed up fo…

I also don't work at a job where I am legally empowered by the state to kill people. Extraordinary power requires extraordinary checks and balances. Our country has erred in giving these people extraordinary power with virtually zero checks and balances, and the result has been a steady stream of murders committed by these state agents against marginalized populations. These monitoring devices, and laws that should be implemented making it criminal to damage or disable them, are a tiny, tiny move in the right direction of limiting the insane excesses of police power.

Also, I don't really give a shit what the murderers in the CPD and their blue wall of silence accomplices want or signed up for at this point.

Re: Chicago Police Hid Mics, Destroyed Dashcams to Block Audio, Records Show

#70

Post by sosuke » Thu, Jan 28, 2016, 2:30 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #66

CPLX wrote: post #21

Though I agree that this behavior is reprehensible and probably criminal, the comments here seem to miss at least some of the human dynamic here. I can't hardly imagine that most people posting here would ever consider a job where literally every word or sound that came out of their mouth during their entire working life was recorded, and likely subject to public disclosure. Saying that this is what cops signed up fo…

We trust cops to protect the weak, to wield and use firearms, and to enforce our laws. This puts them in a tremendous position to abuse their power. The recording devices were installed precisely because abuses of power and criminal activity were already a big problem. The thugs destroyed the recording devices because they want to continue abusing their power, period. For an honest cop, the recordings offer proof of…

Your comment brings up the old and terrible response "if you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to hide"

Is that irony? I never can tell if I use that word right.