The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen • Hacker News Board

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#61

Post by interpol_p » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 1:51 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #49

interpol_p wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can code on iOS devices. You can code in many different programming languages on IDEs available directly on the device. The code can be executed, and so programming is not inhibited. What you are referring to is deployment. You want to be able to deploy or distribute your programs freely through the official channels. And because that is locked down, you consider it "programmable by permission." I would argue tha…

The tablet point is a red herring. 8-bit micros were hardly portable. So discussions about whether or not you can code on iOS or OS X are tangential. The real issue is how easily you can code. 8-bit micros hit the sweet spot. No system available today comes close. You powered up the machine, and the first thing you saw was a BASIC line editor. There was nothing else to distract you. It was instant-on with no setup. Y…

I often get told that my iOS coding app takes people back to their BASIC days. Most people who use it end up telling me they are strongly reminded of the magical feeling when they first discovered programming in their youth.

Kids and schools who use my programming app seem to enjoy the same feelings, but for the first time instead.

I don't believe that it was ever easier to code than it is today. There are myriads of ways to discover the magic of programming. Coding isn't "for the gifted," it's for everyone. Just because the gifted were the only ones who got past the opaque interface of an empty BASIC editor, doesn't mean we should go back to those days.

Your reminiscence for the early days exists right now in beautiful recreations of those environments by the people who loved them [1].

I have been developing a friction-free programming environment for over three years now. And it's not dumbed-down, or toy like. It's instantly on, and you're immediately inside the most interesting place to code, and you instantly run your programs.

I code with my three year old. We do logic and programming games, play with visual programming, and so many other things that never existed when I was a kid. It will only get better from now.

You and I live at a time where every new day is the best day ever to learn to code.

[1] https://github.com/antirez/load81

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#62

Post by interpol_p » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 2:04 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #60

interpol_p wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument was made against the statement "Apple gives Xcode away for free." They do give Xcode away for free. I didn't think that factoring a modern development computer into the price was a reasonable stance to take against that line.

Mac isn't a modern development computer. It's a very specific modern development computer, and not necessarily the best in terms of quality/cost. We're getting unnecessarily deep into dissecting this single line anyway. The original poster's point was that Apple's hardware and software ecosystem, while of great quality, still isn't the "bicycle for the mind" because it's terribly locked down.

I find that argument to be bizarre. You can do computer science on paper.

As long as you can write programs and run them then who cares whether you compile them directly to the hardware or interpret them, or whatever?

Apple locks down its distribution platform. It doesn't lock down your brain from thinking or writing programs, and it doesn't lock down its computers from running them for you.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#63

Post by vixen99 » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

IIAOPSW wrote: post #29

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here. Most people are not creative. Its true. There isn't some horde of people who want to program but don't know it yet because they own a tablet instead of a computer. There isn't some horde of musicians that will never know it because their music comes from an mp3 instead of their own instrument. There isn't some horde of artists who will never know it because their i…

I wish I could be so confident about what 'there isn't'. There's no demand for a real computer revolution in the same way there was "no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of DEC

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#64

Post by hacknat » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 2:45 PM UTC

IIAOPSW wrote: post #29

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here. Most people are not creative. Its true. There isn't some horde of people who want to program but don't know it yet because they own a tablet instead of a computer. There isn't some horde of musicians that will never know it because their music comes from an mp3 instead of their own instrument. There isn't some horde of artists who will never know it because their i…

I would agree with you that most adults are not creative, as it gets knocked out of them at a certain age. We live in a failure averse society and as soon as a child feels embarrassed by a failure they went through it's pretty much game over for them for whatever that failure related to.

I would tend to agree that there is a dirth of painters, musicians, etc in the world. Of my close friends only two of us can play a musical instrument. I think I have to agree with you that easily accessible programming is never going to result in lots of people programming.

In a lot of ways universal programming has gone about as far as it will go. Learning how to program (let me be clear, I do not mean learning how to be a good software engineer) now is actually easier, IMO, than learning a musical instrument. Of my closest friends, two of us play a musical instrument, but three of us program: there's me, the SE, my friend who is an Urban Planner and knows GIS software and R really well, and my other friend who is a patho-biologist and knows Python and R.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#65

Post by goodJobWalrus » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 2:49 PM UTC

consz wrote: post #43

mercer wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Childhood is my go-to argument in favor of 'everyone is creative'. I've not talked to a single person who wasn't highly creative as a child, and just realizing that makes me sad sometimes.

I've never been convinced by that argument. Looking back on my memories as a child, I wouldn't call myself creative -- I think that's something that I've developed as I've grown older, not something I was born with. Certainly, to a degree, children are curious, but that seems largely out of necessity (to learn e.g. language so you can express anything , not necessarily something creative ).

Are you a guy?

As a girl, every girl I knew created imaginary worlds for her dolls, drew, and made things (for the dolls mostly).

Is there anything like that, that little boys create (before they get into computers and video games)?. I'm pregnant with a boy right now actually, would love to know what I can do to encourage creativity from the earliest age.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#66

Post by sanderjd » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

sam_goody wrote: post #37

IIAOPSW wrote: post #29

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here. Most people are not creative. Its true. There isn't some horde of people who want to program but don't know it yet because they own a tablet instead of a computer. There isn't some horde of musicians that will never know it because their music comes from an mp3 instead of their own instrument. There isn't some horde of artists who will never know it because their i…

I disagree. As soon as it became as easy to create video as it was to draw, people created video content, not just consumed it. When sharing (youtube) was easy, the levels of creation have grown unbounded. The amount of media in all forms that is being created today is astounding. That's digital drawing If coding was as easy as writing we would find at least as much growth there. I know dozens of people who have idea…

Is programming really harder than writing a memoir? It seems to be the other way around to me.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#67

Post by selllikesybok » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 3:23 PM UTC

goodJobWalrus wrote: post #65

consz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been convinced by that argument. Looking back on my memories as a child, I wouldn't call myself creative -- I think that's something that I've developed as I've grown older, not something I was born with. Certainly, to a degree, children are curious, but that seems largely out of necessity (to learn e.g. language so you can express anything , not necessarily something creative ).

Are you a guy? As a girl, every girl I knew created imaginary worlds for her dolls, drew, and made things (for the dolls mostly). Is there anything like that, that little boys create (before they get into computers and video games)?. I'm pregnant with a boy right now actually, would love to know what I can do to encourage creativity from the earliest age.

Absolutely! Boys do the same with their dolls. :) I spent countless hours crafting physical things (block forts, mostly) and fantastical backdrops for different generations of "action figures". From 9-10 my go to was an elaborate mythology developed around Micro Machines and dinosaur figurines. Something about dead race drivers reincarnating as sentient dinos in an alternate universe, IIRC.

I was never very good at drawing, but evidence shows I did scribble a lot.

My son loved to draw, and is still pretty good but seems less interested since his early teens. He, too, spent long hours with his different dolls, in addition to the video games.

I'd say so the same things as for a girl, honestly. Provide opportunities to draw/paint/sculpt/make noise. They will do so. :)

I think it's more around school ages that things change more. And puberty, or course.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#68

Post by vlehto » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 3:42 PM UTC

IIAOPSW wrote: post #29

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here. Most people are not creative. Its true. There isn't some horde of people who want to program but don't know it yet because they own a tablet instead of a computer. There isn't some horde of musicians that will never know it because their music comes from an mp3 instead of their own instrument. There isn't some horde of artists who will never know it because their i…

I slightly disagree. About half of the creative people with math knack can't code.

When I was in high school, the advanced math class had ~two types of people. People good at arithmetics and functions and people good at geometry and functions. People who we're good at arithmetics but weren't good at functions dropped out quickly.

Go to engineering school and you will find software people who thing about graphics as an afterthought. They remember numbers and words easily, enjoy squashing bugs. And they are good with function like ideas, that turn into programs. Like search engines, text editors, finding primes and brute forcing passwords. (I don't know really as I don't belong to their tribe.)

Then there are construction and mechanical engineering students. They won't code voluntarily, because they are crap at it. "What the fuck did I name that thing? How many steps should this while loop do?" Just doesn't compute. Yet these people can manage pretty massive concept design and 3D models and whatnot. CAD work is fun to them, unlike most CS majors. I'm one of that group. While I can do small programs in Python, I don't enjoy what I'm capable of doing. Learning more seems futile, as I will never be actually good at it.

This divide into two groups shows in later life too. Just check the prices of decent CAD tools, and compare them to decent IDEs. For some reason people who are able to enjoy both CAD and coding are incredibly rare. And that makes them very valuable.

If you could make graphic, grown up and powerful language, that would tap pretty huge resource of brain power. Currently it might happen as some sort of hydraulic simulation tool or autolisp plug to Autocad.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#69

Post by zepto » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 3:49 PM UTC

_ph_ wrote: post #31

zepto wrote: post #3

This is gibberish. The programming tools on the iPad are already quite powerful - far better than those old basic powered micros. There is also no reason to believe that XCode or the equivalent will not come to iOS now that the devices are nearly performant enough. As far as a completely open system like Smalltalk goes - that was a wonderful world which I wish we lived in, but we don't - not because of Apple, but bec…

Apple does not have to open up the whole system - there are some good reasons for limiting the access of applications to the system part of the filesystem and the bare hardware. However, Apple also very much limits the ability to run e.g. Squeak as an app on IOS, you might run it, but not download source code over the internet. And if you read the Anandtech iPad Pro test you can see how much software is held back by…

I completely agree. I just think that Apple does too, but just isn't moving as fast as we want them to.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#70

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sun, Jan 24, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

selllikesybok wrote: post #67

goodJobWalrus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a guy? As a girl, every girl I knew created imaginary worlds for her dolls, drew, and made things (for the dolls mostly). Is there anything like that, that little boys create (before they get into computers and video games)?. I'm pregnant with a boy right now actually, would love to know what I can do to encourage creativity from the earliest age.

Absolutely! Boys do the same with their dolls. :) I spent countless hours crafting physical things (block forts, mostly) and fantastical backdrops for different generations of "action figures". From 9-10 my go to was an elaborate mythology developed around Micro Machines and dinosaur figurines. Something about dead race drivers reincarnating as sentient dinos in an alternate universe, IIRC. I was never very good at d…

My brother and I had an elaborately worked-out story and setting for our Nintendo-themed plush dolls that mostly reflected our exposure to Dragonball Z in afternoon/early-morning cartoon blocks.

In fact, it was slightly more aware of its own genre conventions than DBZ ever achieved.

Of course, we had loads and loads of free time back then. Why, I had so much free time back then, I could spend time trying to write my own pathetically hand-crafted D3D8 game engine and play with dolls with my brother, all in the same week!

Compare to adulthood, in which I'm lucky to combine going to the gym, basic household tasks, and accomplishing 5 hours of hobby-stuff in a single week of outside-work time.