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United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

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Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#61

Post by digikata »

taurath wrote: post #6

Flight experiences are really just anecdotal if you're talking about the same "class" of flight. I know people who fly regularly and are perfectly fine with Delta while they'd never fly American. At the same time, its always felt like the "national" domestic airlines have had very poor service - I liken it to GM and Chrysler vehicles.

The quality of the experience can also depend on what routes and/or hubs people use regularly. Airlines also have different grades of presence at various airports.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#62

Post by peteretep »

BookmarkSaver wrote: post #43
peteretep wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And as far as I can see there is no option on the > scheduling system to say I want a longer layover A travel agent can help you with that.

Yes, but the idea that you actually have to hire a person to do something that can be almost trivially handled by their existing systems is ridiculous these days.

    > something that can be almost trivially handled
One enters dangerous territory when one starts making assessments about how difficult changing a system they're not familiar with is.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#63

Post by ghaff »

joshyeager wrote: post #51
rconti wrote: post #27

I think the airlines have had a bit of a race to the bottom in a few ways: * Fees. Charge baggage fees, everyone else does the same, nobody's any better off. Boarding is slower and passengers crankier. I was HAPPY to not have to tote my bag around every single layover until they started charging for bags, now I'm another unhappy customer lugging a bag everywhere, walking up and down the aisles looking for space, havi…

I would definitely pay 50% more for an extra 3" of leg room. Maybe even just 2". Take out one row and you could add that much to 10-12 rows. I must be missing something, because that seems like it would be an effective option. It would increase the flight cost of those seats by 8-12%, and you could charge 20-50% more for them.

You've pretty much described United Economy Plus. I'm not sure it's even typically that much of a premium although I'm not sure as I get it as part of my status.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#64

Post by Zigurd »

scottkduncan wrote: post #56
Zigurd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making a product horrible in order to sell "less horrible" is not a great example of a market success.

It's all in how you evaluate whether it is a horrible product. I consider economy class airfare a commodity and evaluate it on getting me to my destination safely and on time. Delays are obviously still an issue, and I do believe airlines should treat passengers as well as possible (prompt re-booking, compensation, hotel rooms, etc.) when their travel plans have been disrupted due to delays. I also don't believe ther…

You don't have to believe in a "Golden Age" to think that sloth and greed drive airline operations to fall back on excuses about security and their TBTF status to monetize "less horrible" vs "horrible."

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#65

Post by rconti »

zbruhnke wrote: post #48
rconti wrote: post #27

I think the airlines have had a bit of a race to the bottom in a few ways: * Fees. Charge baggage fees, everyone else does the same, nobody's any better off. Boarding is slower and passengers crankier. I was HAPPY to not have to tote my bag around every single layover until they started charging for bags, now I'm another unhappy customer lugging a bag everywhere, walking up and down the aisles looking for space, havi…

As someone who is in the top 1% of fliers I could not disagree more with the sentiment that the top 1% of fliers aren't going anywhere/will not notice good service. In fact as a counter to that point I flew well over 150k miles on United last year and yet right now I'm doing a status match on American because United's service on my most frequent route (LAX -> JFK) completely changed in October of last year and I was/…

Thanks for your comment. We're all certainly sensitive to customer service issues (if anything, frequent fliers even more so). I think a major change in service for your most frequently-used route is pretty significant, and I'd expect anyone to switch airlines for this. I was speaking more of small changes that would likely go unnoticed, eg if one airline offers upgrades to frequent fliers slightly more often than another; that might go unnoticed, and even if it didn't, likely would not trump loyalty due to existing miles, preferable routes, preferred lounges/service of one airline over another, etc.

Your suggestion of "upgrading" yourself is not realistic for 2 reasons. One, very few people will pay 5x as much for a slightly better experience. The price difference vastly exceeds the actual cost (except to the extent that premium seats subsidize coach seats, of course).

Secondly, my comment was about the customer goodwill the occasional upgrade would generate, as lowly infrequent fliers do not expect to be treated as anything but breathing, inconvenient cargo.

You say that people who spend as much time in the air as you DO care, but you also said you don't use upgrades, and you changed airlines over a major service change, not over a minor upgrade policy change. I'm not saying you DON'T care about upgrades, just that it's not really what you were addressing in your comment.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#66

Post by rconti »

ghaff wrote: post #40
rconti wrote: post #27

I think the airlines have had a bit of a race to the bottom in a few ways: * Fees. Charge baggage fees, everyone else does the same, nobody's any better off. Boarding is slower and passengers crankier. I was HAPPY to not have to tote my bag around every single layover until they started charging for bags, now I'm another unhappy customer lugging a bag everywhere, walking up and down the aisles looking for space, havi…

A typical domestic flight has very few upgrade seats (e.g. on a 757). As one of those "frequent flier" business travelers on United (Gold--50K mile/yr status), I hardly ever get upgraded. >would 'only' cost them 33% of seat capacity So, on today's planes, they'd have to increase fares accordingly given that utilization on most flights is pretty high. I get your point. But the market dynamics are more or less "lowest…

Right, I am more than willing to pay a premium price for a better service, but we're talking 50%, not 500%. I believe the price they're trying to charge is simply an order of magnitude out of whack with reality.

I suspect there are 2 factors at play here. For one, serving the lowest common denominator and competing on price is easier. It's easier to create metrics around, and by handling volume, it's easier to fill planes. It would be harder to provide a premium service airline with all more-expensive seats, because likely they'd end up with unexpectedly low utilization or unexpectedly high demand at various times, based on seasonality, and it might be harder to fill all of the seats as efficiently. Not to mention route planning and so on.

The other factor is probably just a bit of a herd mentality where nobody wants to go out on a limb and try something different for fear of spectacular failure. We know the existing system works, even if it doesn't work well.

I know United has Premium Service, but they don't even make it easy to purchase. They mention that it's on EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO routes, but then tout the level of "available" service in different classes -- 1st, and economy plus. They imply there's ALSO regular economy seating, and don't explain what (if anything) is better in regular economy. They don't discuss whether Economy plus is better than economy plus on other planes/routes. They also don't seem to provide any way of booking it -- I looked several times on their website, and perhaps I just need to know which flights are considered "PS" flights, and then figure out if it costs more or the same?

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#67

Post by rconti »

ghaff wrote: post #63
joshyeager wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would definitely pay 50% more for an extra 3" of leg room. Maybe even just 2". Take out one row and you could add that much to 10-12 rows. I must be missing something, because that seems like it would be an effective option. It would increase the flight cost of those seats by 8-12%, and you could charge 20-50% more for them.

You've pretty much described United Economy Plus. I'm not sure it's even typically that much of a premium although I'm not sure as I get it as part of my status.

From what I've seen, Economy Plus only offers 5" additional legroom and no additional shoulder room. The legroom comes in handy more for ingress and egress (and, I suppose, not having your laptop screen crushed as readily when the passenger in front of you reclines).

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#68

Post by ghaff »

rconti wrote: post #67
ghaff wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've pretty much described United Economy Plus. I'm not sure it's even typically that much of a premium although I'm not sure as I get it as part of my status.

From what I've seen, Economy Plus only offers 5" additional legroom and no additional shoulder room. The legroom comes in handy more for ingress and egress (and, I suppose, not having your laptop screen crushed as readily when the passenger in front of you reclines).

The parent specifically asked for legroom. You're correct that there's no additional shoulder room. As a relatively tall person, the legroom is nice. I basically never use a laptop in flight.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#69

Post by lokedhs »

I can't help but think that all they have to do is to look at other airlines in the US and don't do what they do. Then you look at any airline in Asia and do what they do. Problem solved.

I fly a lot in South-East Asia and judging by what I see from US commenters here, the things I can complain about are problems a US airline would love to have.

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