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Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

oxfam.org

61–70 of 136 posts

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#61
post #48

> Members of this global elite had an average wealth of $2.7 million per adult in 2014. I know plenty of people in their 60s who simply busted their asses at middle-class jobs while saving their pennies who are members of this "global elite."

I don't think you do. The median income in the USA is $52,000. Assuming that a middle-class job pays 3* that amount, and that someone can reasonably save 30% of their salary for the last 20 years they work, that amounts to about $1m saved. Probably a lot less because a person's salary isn't at it's peak for much of their career. Even factoring for a household with 2 incomes at that level you don't get to $2.7m. I ima…

I think you're not understanding that the American middle class covers quite a wide range of wealth and income.

You'd probably also be surprised at just how many millionaires who used to work in factories there are. 40 years of union wages, plus pension, plus investing in a mutual fund. I obviously can't prove it here, but I'm from a blue-collar factory city and trust me, some of those people have multi-million dollar retirement funds.

Granted, you can't replicate that kind of success today, but there are people who didn't work "elite" jobs in possession of millions.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think GP does know some people like this, because the boomer generation experienced tremendous asset appreciation across all sectors (public equities and real estate in particular) during their earning years.

Sure, but being in the right time and place to benefit from a massive housing boom/bubble isn't "busting their asses".

> isn't "busting their asses"

It is if that invested money came from say, pouring metal in a foundry 60 hours a week for 40 years.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#63
So I assume everyone downloaded the PDF AND the excel? Good, so lets get to the numbers:

My problems:

1. Percentages: the article talks in percentages, as if something tangible was lost from 50-45%. Here is the table of wealth by year in total vs the bottom 50%:

year Total($bil) 50% ($bn)

2000 $117,052.00 $702.31

2001 $113,390.00 $793.73

2002 $122,757.00 $859.30

2003 $147,566.00 $1,032.96

2004 $166,018.00 $1,162.13

2005 $171,182.00 $1,198.27

2006 $195,941.00 $1,763.47

2007 $220,043.00 $2,200.43

2008 $189,877.00 $1,708.89

2009 $205,656.00 $1,850.90

2010 $216,084.00 $2,593.01

2011 $224,382.00 $2,243.82

2012 $238,089.00 $2,142.80

2013 $255,620.00 $1,789.34

2014 $263,242.00 $1,842.69

    +224.89% +262.38%
The wealth of the bottom 50% had tripled by 2010, even 2012, and has fallen off in the years since 2010. Taking the 2014 reduced numbers, that is still a 262% increase in 14 years. In contrast, the TOTAL economy has grown 224.89% since 2000. Why is THAT not the story? "Global share of bottom 50% growing faster than the world economy" doesn't fit the narrative perchance?

Besides which, isn't that F^$%^&$ing amazing! That the bottom 50% areover 2 and a half times richer. That is world changing for the people it affects, surely? Yet the story is the rich have more. Really, "Rich have more" is the story? I can't wait for "water is wet" as installment 2.

More importantly, why is the story not the drop from 2010 to 2014? What was that?

So I sought out the source: https://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/?fi... and it appears that the wealth in the bottom 50% is made up mostly of mostly of two things (see figure 8, page 12): 1. Poor nations - e.g. Africa and, largest of all, India which accounts "... for over a quarter of people in the bottom half of the distribution". 2. Ruch Americans in debt - the tail seems skewed that way, to me at least.

If we take just India, they had a massive currency exchange problem vs the USD since 2010. In 2010, it was 46.21 rupee to the dollar, in December 2014 it was 62.8 (http://www.x-rates.com/average/?from=USD&to=INR&amount=1&yea...). That is a drop of about a third in value. That is likely at least part of the reason for the wealth drop.

2. The percentage projection carries on from what looks like an historical anomaly between 2010 and 2014. If the currency exchange reverses course, and India claws back even 10% of the gap, the percentage to the 1% will likely reverse to some degree.

3. The data set for the rich changes dramatically. The minimum to be top 80 in 2014, would be top 15 in 2004. Zuckerberg appears out of nowhere in 2011, adding a few billion (his wealth versus the 81st position) to the total from nowhere. If Wallmart's founder had survived, we'd have a top 80 with 4 more billionaires in it, making it an even larger a total. That's not really indicative of anything (other than rich people can die too).

Look, I get Oxfam's political agenda, but I think a +262.38% increase in wealth for the bottom 50% - even after what looks like a currency disaster since 2010 - is amazing in and of itself, and any comparison to an arbitrary set of extremely wealthy is just political machinations.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#65
post #57
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you do. The median income in the USA is $52,000. Assuming that a middle-class job pays 3* that amount, and that someone can reasonably save 30% of their salary for the last 20 years they work, that amounts to about $1m saved. Probably a lot less because a person's salary isn't at it's peak for much of their career. Even factoring for a household with 2 incomes at that level you don't get to $2.7m. I ima…

Net worth, that includes your home. And don't forget returns on investment. Saving $30K/yr and getting a 5% return on your investment gets you very close to $2.5M after a 30 year career. Sure that's in the upper range of middle class, but it's by no means wealthy.

it's by no means wealthy

Are you honestly trying to suggest that someone with $2.5m to their name isn't wealthy? Wow.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#66
post #65
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net worth, that includes your home. And don't forget returns on investment. Saving $30K/yr and getting a 5% return on your investment gets you very close to $2.5M after a 30 year career. Sure that's in the upper range of middle class, but it's by no means wealthy.

it's by no means wealthy Are you honestly trying to suggest that someone with $2.5m to their name isn't wealthy? Wow.

They're certainly not poor, but if they've saved that stash just to blow it all on end-of-life care, they're not really wealthy in the perceived 1% sense.

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that markets are created, not discovered. Probably because most capitalists don't believe this? >nor did the property rights regarding their shares. Debatable. Most capitalists would say that property rights naturally exist and that "shares" are simply an agreed upon way of dividing property rights over a complexity of assets and agreements (i.e. a business). >Taxing la…

"Most capitalists would say that property rights naturally exist ..." I would like those capitalists to show me the "property rights" molecule.

The concept of "property rights without responsibility" is a Roman invention. There are alternatives. US law takes property rights more seriously than most other countries, because the US never had to get rid of feudalism. Also, one of the few lawbooks available in the early days of the US was Blackstone, who was a property rights absolutist.

In feudalism, land ownership implies the obligation to protect the inhabitants and gives them certain rights. One remnant of this is that, in Britain, you have the right to walk on the undeveloped private property of others. Also, most European countries afford renters much stronger rights than the US does.

Many nomadic societies, from the Mongols to native Americans, don't recognize the right to own real estate you're not currently using. Sharia law has the concept that land can be unowned by anyone, and can revert to that state if unused, although many Islamic countries do not do that in practice.

So no, property rights do not stem from "natural law".

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#68
post #64

Let me rephrase the title using absolute values: "Richest 73 Million People Will Own More Than All The Rest by 2016"

That's less than the population of Germany having more wealth than the other 7 billion.

I've mentioned this before, but if you want to know why this is, read Debt: the First 5000 Years.

It's life changing

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#69
I feel the serious point Oxfam are looking to make is let down by a definition of wealth that is very distorted.

Their headline is based on a report by Credit Suisse [1] which defines net worth as: "the marketable value of financial assets plus non-financial assets (principally housing and land) less debts."

Consider two people who will earn exactly the same amount of money at every stage of their lives. But one is 18 and has just started working, the other is 65 and has just retired. Is the 65 year old really 1000x richer than the 18 year old, because the 18 year old has saved $100 so far and the 65 year old has had time to save $100,000? Is this really 1000x inequality? For the purposes of determining inequality, these people should be considered equal, because it's simply the case that one person is older and has had more time to save.

A fair assessment of a person's wealth, at least when determining fairness and inequality, should include more than this. It should include an estimate of their future earnings potential plus the social security/welfare state entitlements and state pensions that they are entitled to.

Otherwise you have hundreds of millions of people in the West with negative "wealth" who in reality will enjoy a far wealthier life than someone in the developing world with small positive financial assets and no debt.

Someone with $100 in assets and no debt does not get to claim that they are single handedly "richer" than the combined net worth of tens of millions of university graduates that each have a total career earnings potential of millions of dollars, but who each still have outstanding student debt and thus negative net worth.

Also see this article on the "the wealthy living paycheck to paycheck" [2] which points out that people that will enjoy very wealthy lifestyles are spending rather than saving their income, and therefore really are rich yet will be written off as being far "poorer" than others in terms of financial assets.

[1] http://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/inde... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/25/wealthy-amer...

Re: Richest 1% will own more than all the rest by 2016

#70
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite sure the point of your comment. This article says nothing about whether poverty as a whole is decreasing? The report you link to agrees with what they say is a problem (e.g. "In high-income countries, the rising concern about shared prosperity is a reaction to income inequality that has reached levels unprecedented in the post-war period.") There is no contradiction between the top 1% getting richer and mor…

> This article says nothing about whether poverty as a whole is decreasing? They are saying the inequalities are growing, whereas the world bank report says the inequalities in income are shrinking progressively. That's a very different view.

Inequalities are shrinking not because everyone is getting richer but because the middle class is being hollowed out. People who used to be middle income earners are now low income earners making them more in line with the working class who were always low income earners. #progress
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