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The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

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Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The application you have just started uses 'flash' content, this will adversely affect your battery life. Click or edit: way to go downmodder, getting modded down for presenting a possible solution to an issue is a new low for HN. Congratulations. Now if you'd be so kind as to explain why you thought that was not a viable solution?

By removing Flash altogether, Apple is encouraging web developers to upgrade to new web technologies (HTML 5). If the iPhone/iPad had the option of using Flash, then web developers wouldn't have an incentive to produce non-Flash content. I'm guessing that had the iPhone come with Flash at launch, Youtube would never have implemented MP4 and HTML 5 video tags.

I'm pretty sure YouTube was going the route of H.264 MP4 anyways. They certainly aren't going to switch H264 just so that small group of people can try out YouTube on their iPhone.

That being said, HTML 5 can get people to use it without the help of Apple, by simply being better, not by artificially creating a need for HTML 5.

Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument against using Flash is that it's not suitable for a low-powered, long battery-life hand held device. My guess is that Jobs is worried that if Flash were enabled, the average consumer would notice a much shorter battery life. The consumer won't understand that Flash is to blame, and will end up blaming the iPad instead. >Why make people pay when there's FREE games out there online if only flash were suppo…

The application you have just started uses 'flash' content, this will adversely affect your battery life. Click or edit: way to go downmodder, getting modded down for presenting a possible solution to an issue is a new low for HN. Congratulations. Now if you'd be so kind as to explain why you thought that was not a viable solution?

I'll bite. I like disagreeing with you! I think I've been rude to you before, but I like a lot of your posts, and you definitely don't deserve a drive-by down mod.

Your solution is not viable because the problem is not an interface problem. The problem is that Flash does not actually make the iPhone, iPod, or iPad a better product in any way that matters to Apple.

Some potential customers (which Apple surely cares about) may demand it, but they also demand ponies, etc. Whether they would actually buy the product if it had Flash or would like it if they had it is something we can only guess at, but if you had to guess if users would really like poorer performance, poorer battery life, more advertisements, games which run but don't fit on the screen or work well with touch interfaces, choppy video with non-standard controls--well, if that's what Flash support means in practice, it's quite possible that those users really don't know what they want.

If this all sounds very paternal and "Steve (and whoever else at Apple) knows best.", well...it is. Good design often is pretty dictatorial. It's not the only way to design a good product, but it has a pretty good track record, and not just for Apple. They've certainly had a pretty good run in declining to support Flash. Is that going to come to a grinding halt over Farmville and Punch The Monkey? Maybe. Probably not.

Apple generally doesn't want to soak up any of the credit or blame for technology that they don't have any control and hardly any influence over. If Flash on the iPhone/iPad sucked, it would mean something about the iPhone/iPad sucks, and Apple wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

Think about that. Would you want to release a product that not only incorporated a flaw (even potential one) that you couldn't fix, but which you depended on to meet the market's bullet-point test and which you couldn't remove on pain of user revolt? Dreadful scenario. Why not "just" try not to depend on things you can't fix?

The Apple story in the past decade has been shrewd application of this rule to very great effect in every case that I can think of, from touchpads to retail. It isn't an ignorance of real world circumstances (like Flash's installed base), it's a refusal to depend on them. Where they can't roll their own or do without, they tend to bring a ton of leverage to the table and leave with a bag of concessions.

You may have noticed that Apple has a strong brand. They got that way by trying hard to not release crap. Contrast (say) Microsoft which has a wildly uneven product line ranging from really great to utter trash. Contrast the Android platform, "iPhone Killer"s all, and all striving to escape the pit of their own shared mediocrity.

So, they don't want to release crap, and they don't want to depend on anybody else? Now the question is: Do they really have to depend on Flash to make their product great?

The thing is, most people outside of Adobe that "want Flash" don't actually want Flash. They want the things that they currently get through Flash, like games and video and rich interfaces. Now that is something that Apple can work on. And they do. And sites that would otherwise depend on Flash do. And native application developers do. And the result in most cases is a better overall experience for their users for each of those things. And there is more of that every day.

So even though they're losing a bit to the non-fungible nature of the content (i.e. you can get games but not Farmville...yet; you can get video but not Hulu...yet), what they are gaining in the end is actually a higher-quality result overall. Isn't that what it's all really about in the first place?

Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The application you have just started uses 'flash' content, this will adversely affect your battery life. Click or edit: way to go downmodder, getting modded down for presenting a possible solution to an issue is a new low for HN. Congratulations. Now if you'd be so kind as to explain why you thought that was not a viable solution?

I'll bite. I like disagreeing with you! I think I've been rude to you before, but I like a lot of your posts, and you definitely don't deserve a drive-by down mod. Your solution is not viable because the problem is not an interface problem. The problem is that Flash does not actually make the iPhone, iPod, or iPad a better product in any way that matters to Apple. Some potential customers (which Apple surely cares ab…

Well what we're getting is developers having to make iPhone specific version of their app, and with the release of Adobe Flash CS5 that's going to become more prominent. But this still isn't HTML5, where we really want to go right? As far as Objective-c iphone specific apps, this isn't necessarily better. In fact it's probably worse because these apps are less open than flash apps. They're locked into the iPhone and you have to pay $99 to deploy them on a real one.

You're right, people who want flash don't want flash. They want rich applications. But Flash is the only thing that can deliver that right now on desktop (and cover a reasonable audience). HTML 5 is still catching up. On the iPhone you may not need flash, but the alternative is Apple's closed iPhone platform. I don't think that's necessarily better than another system which is already a de facto standard.

Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, exactly. A lot of tech nerds don't understand just how unnecessarily complex computers are today. Watch a 60 year old try and use a PC for the first time and you'll realise how non-intuitive the modern desktop OS is today. The iPhone OS moves away from antiquated input devices (mice and keyboards with cursor keys and function buttons) and towards a touch interface that is simple and intuitive. The other benefit…

Watch anybody use any piece of advanced technology for the first time and realize how non-intuitive technology really is. But after a little bit of practice just about anybody can use a PC, or a Mac (or a linux box) for that matter.

I watched both of my non-techie parents use my iPhone two years ago when I brought my family home for Xmas and by new years day they both had shiny new iPhones. They hardly ever used the computers I set up for them and would routinely update/replace whenever I returned over two decades but they dived right into the iPhone. My mom had a 3GS before I did.

The learning curve was not as steep and the rewards for learning the device were more direct and obvious. Anyone can eventually learn to use a computer running Linux, OS X, or Windows if they really have to, but there is a big difference between needing to learn how to use something and getting past that initial hump so quickly that you don't even notice it.

Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#65
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. I like disagreeing with you! I think I've been rude to you before, but I like a lot of your posts, and you definitely don't deserve a drive-by down mod. Your solution is not viable because the problem is not an interface problem. The problem is that Flash does not actually make the iPhone, iPod, or iPad a better product in any way that matters to Apple. Some potential customers (which Apple surely cares ab…

Well what we're getting is developers having to make iPhone specific version of their app, and with the release of Adobe Flash CS5 that's going to become more prominent. But this still isn't HTML5, where we really want to go right? As far as Objective-c iphone specific apps, this isn't necessarily better. In fact it's probably worse because these apps are less open than flash apps. They're locked into the iPhone and…

developers having to make iPhone specific version of their app

No, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is that if they do, or if they use HTML5, they're still presenting a better quality product to users of this platform than they would using Flash. To Apple, that is a far more important thing than what they're potentially losing from not supporting Flash. Nobody "has to" develop iPhone apps any more than people "have to" develop Flash apps for the web. It's all about what experience you want to deliver to what audience.

Right now, there are compelling reasons to go either way or even both ways. I'm just saying there will never be a time when going in the direction of Flash-based web apps will get you access to the iPhone/iPad audience, an audience which is growing, unlike the Flash audience. So yeah, I think Apple made the right decision both for their own product and for developers who care about the quality of experience they can provide and the money they can make than they do the particular platform they use.

Obviously this makes Flash developers unhappy, and Adobe is doing the best they can to cater to those developers with CS5, even if it hastens their own demise.

They're locked into the iPhone and you have to pay $99 to deploy them on a real one.

Flash apps are locked into the Flash runtime, further locked into whatever platform assumptions you make about performance, etc., and the developer tools are considerably more expensive than $99. You don't get the distribution or sales channel of the App Store (which in spite of all it's faults is still a very valuable thing). If you're developing games, you're going to be giving a cut to whatever sites you're hosted on, etc.

I'm not saying that's worse. It's just a different trade-off, and as long as you're depending on any platform vendor, you're always going to be getting a little bit screwed. The question is really about how dependent, how screwed, and how strong is the platform.

The same applies to an open platform like HTML5. It may have the market penetration to kill Flash for every use, but the overall outlook is pretty good.

But Flash is the only thing that can deliver that right now on desktop (and cover a reasonable audience).

Yeah, but we're not really talking about the desktop when we talk about Flash. We're talking about the web, and the web is increasingly used from machines that aren't desktops or laptops. Flash may be installed on 98% or so of desktops and laptops, but if you include "all devices capable of using the web", Adobe's share is much lower and is actually shrinking, and not just because of Apple's products. In terms of who you can reach, Flash is on much shakier footing than most people realize.

Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pricing is a question of time. The iPod Touch launched at $300 and $400 price points. Now it starts at $199. You're right about the pocket factor: The iPad is a gamble, of course, which is what makes it interesting. It's hard to know, without trying, how many people will trade the inconvenience of a larger device for much more screen real estate, higher performance, and optional 3G networking. All we know is that the…

The problem I see with that is if you're going to lug something that size around a macbook air is 3 times as expensive, but a run-of-the-mill netbook is more powerful and a lot cheaper.

The problem I see is that any netbook I lug around is going to be less useful than an iPad. The netbook screen is short and you pretty much have to use it in landscape orientation. The keyboard and trackpad are small and cramped.

Also, I question "a lot more powerful." if you mean powerful in terms of range of apps or peripherals, then I see your point. If you are talking about raw performance, you are probably right, but I doubt the difference is going to be that significant.

I have access to a netbook, but I almost never use it. There aren't many situations that I'd choose it over either my iPhone or my laptop. The size, runtime and interaction model of the iPad, on the other hand, suggests advantages over both a laptop and my iPhone for situations I'm in every day (not that I won't have me iPhone with me a. The same time).

Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are many casual games in the App Store, including many tower defence games (my favourite is Star Defence, but there are plenty of good free ones, if 99c is too dear). This is only going to increase with Flash CS5. Why make people pay when there's FREE games out there online if only flash were supported. Flash support means opening up to a whole world of preexisting games, rich internet applications, and porn…

The argument against using Flash is that it's not suitable for a low-powered, long battery-life hand held device. My guess is that Jobs is worried that if Flash were enabled, the average consumer would notice a much shorter battery life. The consumer won't understand that Flash is to blame, and will end up blaming the iPad instead. >Why make people pay when there's FREE games out there online if only flash were suppo…

...Preexisting games which still cost $99 to deliver, and which means ultimately a cost passed on to the consumer.

Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#68
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well what we're getting is developers having to make iPhone specific version of their app, and with the release of Adobe Flash CS5 that's going to become more prominent. But this still isn't HTML5, where we really want to go right? As far as Objective-c iphone specific apps, this isn't necessarily better. In fact it's probably worse because these apps are less open than flash apps. They're locked into the iPhone and…

developers having to make iPhone specific version of their app No, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is that if they do , or if they use HTML5, they're still presenting a better quality product to users of this platform than they would using Flash. To Apple, that is a far more important thing than what they're potentially losing from not supporting Flash. Nobody "has to" develop iPhone apps any more…

>Flash apps are locked into the Flash runtime, further locked into whatever platform assumptions you make about performance, etc., and the developer tools are considerably more expensive than $99. You don't get the distribution or sales channel of the App Store (which in spite of all it's faults is still a very valuable thing). If you're developing games, you're going to be giving a cut to whatever sites you're hosted on, etc.

Actually you can use Open source tools to develop flash apps, like OpenLaszlow. And it's not like there are no distribution channels for your flash app, after all the internet is free and open (as long as you're not in China).

I don't really give a damn what's good for Apple. All I know is that there are existing apps I want to use, and I want to use them on my iPhone. I don't care which way makes apple more money.

> Yeah, but we're not really talking about the desktop when we talk about Flash. We're talking about the web, and the web is increasingly used from machines that aren't desktops or laptops. Flash may be installed on 98% or so of desktops and laptops, but if you include "all devices capable of using the web", Adobe's share is much lower and is actually shrinking, and not just because of Apple's products. In terms of who you can reach, Flash is on much shakier footing than most people realize.

And yet there are still flash apps that I want to use that aren't available on the iPhone.

Please understand my concern is not whether this decision was a great decision for Apple. I'm only concerned about whether or not Apple is serving my needs, and whether or not blocking flash is a way to increase their profits or my enjoyment.

And frankly I believe at least part of Apple's intentions in blocking flash is to lock you in their own proprietary platform: the app store.

Re: The iPad Literally Breaks Every Use Case I Had For It

#69
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

developers having to make iPhone specific version of their app No, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is that if they do , or if they use HTML5, they're still presenting a better quality product to users of this platform than they would using Flash. To Apple, that is a far more important thing than what they're potentially losing from not supporting Flash. Nobody "has to" develop iPhone apps any more…

>Flash apps are locked into the Flash runtime, further locked into whatever platform assumptions you make about performance, etc., and the developer tools are considerably more expensive than $99. You don't get the distribution or sales channel of the App Store (which in spite of all it's faults is still a very valuable thing). If you're developing games, you're going to be giving a cut to whatever sites you're hoste…

Actually you can use Open source tools to develop flash apps, like OpenLaszlow

Yeah, and? You just get more trade-offs. It's turtles all the way down.

And it's not like there are no distribution channels for your flash app, after all the internet is free and open

You'll sell more lemonade from a store shelf than a stand on your front lawn. The reason people are willing to give up 30% to a platform vendor or 50% to a game site is that actually getting your product in front of people and giving them a way to give you money is a pretty valuable service. You cannot just put something on some webpage and expect to make a cent. Believe me, many have tried.

I don't really give a damn what's good for Apple.

I never said you did. I'm just talking about the motives of another party, just like my first post. You seem to care quite a bit about their actions--I'm not clear on whether it's as a developer or as a user or both--so I just assumed that talking about motives would be relevant.

It's not really just about Apple, either. Flash is not going to be unseated by iPhone/iPad applications alone, but by the combination of HTML5 and growth of native applications on every platform that doesn't support Flash.

And yet there are still flash apps that I want to use that aren't available on the iPhone.

Yeah, and? Your point of control here is in choosing not to buy a device which doesn't suit your needs. That should be obvious.

But again: you probably don't care about those applications and not the fact that they're built on Flash. From Apple's perspective there are really only two possibilities: either development of Flash alternatives in the form of HTML5 and native applications eventually reach the point that your demands are met by their products, or they that never happens and that forever remains barrier to your interest in what they want to sell. I think there are very good reasons to believe the former is more probable than the latter. You may have dozens of other reasons to not want their product, but so long as you (and most people) don't demand Flash for the sake of Flash, it's nonsensical to include it.

I'm only concerned about whether or not Apple is serving my needs...

That's your business. I'm simply responding to your comments on my comments.

...whether or not blocking flash is a way to increase their profits or my enjoyment

The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they usually go hand in hand. If you buy a product and like it, you have both increased the maker's profits and your enjoyment. Everybody wins.

I believe at least part of Apple's intentions in blocking flash is to lock you in their own proprietary platform

How? Apple can't force anybody to develop for their platform.

I don't see how someone who develops iPhone applications is anymore "locked in" to the platform than someone who develops for the Mac, or Windows, or Flash, or Android, or Xbox, or whatever. I thought the whole complaint about the App Store was that everyone else was "locked out"?

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