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Nanomsg: Stepping Down

garrett.damore.org

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Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#61

Post by hsod »

rdtsc wrote: post #30
VLM wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its philosophical. Note how you discuss if the CoC is controversial, not the maintainer wanting to enforce it, or how you phrase it as "there is a CoC" rather than "the maintainer will apply force as necessary". Folks with agency or autonomy will personally act to eliminate harassment, without need for rules, for example. Troll on my turf, I will ban you. Not some set of rules taking action, a human (that being me) w…

> So what is the use of a CoC? In this case the use is that the maintainer took the time to create it. You can argue that it is useless. Even the maintainer seem to largely agree. So why not have it? It is already there. Why show negativity. A CoC is a bit like a trademark. To be useful it has to be enforced. So it can just sit there, and if nobody bothers to look at, it will just occupy some extra bytes on some serv…

People resent being regulated, even if that regulation has no practical effect on their behavior. Most people who are nice are nice because they choose to be. Having someone come in and tell you "you better be nice or else" is kind of insulting and robs you of a bit of agency. I think that's a natural human reaction.

That being said, I'm generally in favor of Codes of Conduct because I think the good they do outweighs the bad. But I don't buy your argument that it's a totally neutral document and people should just not vote because it's "already there".

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#62

Post by nijiko »

SwellJoe wrote: post #58
moonchrome wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women? IMO tech industry is the most meritocratic sector I've seen, even more the little I've seen from academia. Note - it's far from being some ideal meritocracy, there's plenty of PHB, politics and plain old corporate bullshit, but low barrier…

I don't want to keep harping on the "as a white dude" theme, here, but that's what I keep hearing. As white dudes we don't see race or gender, because we aren't made to see it in our daily lives. Tech is a meritocracy for white dudes. For everyone else, it is a little bit meritocracy, and a little bit toxic environment where they are made to feel their minority status on a regular basis. I'm not saying this because I…

There are more Asians, and Indians doing technology than "white dudes" statistically speaking white people are the minority.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#63

Post by SwellJoe »

nijiko wrote: post #62
SwellJoe wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to keep harping on the "as a white dude" theme, here, but that's what I keep hearing. As white dudes we don't see race or gender, because we aren't made to see it in our daily lives. Tech is a meritocracy for white dudes. For everyone else, it is a little bit meritocracy, and a little bit toxic environment where they are made to feel their minority status on a regular basis. I'm not saying this because I…

There are more Asians, and Indians doing technology than "white dudes" statistically speaking white people are the minority.

No, there aren't. At least, not in the US.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#64

Post by moonchrome »

SwellJoe wrote: post #58
moonchrome wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women? IMO tech industry is the most meritocratic sector I've seen, even more the little I've seen from academia. Note - it's far from being some ideal meritocracy, there's plenty of PHB, politics and plain old corporate bullshit, but low barrier…

I don't want to keep harping on the "as a white dude" theme, here, but that's what I keep hearing. As white dudes we don't see race or gender, because we aren't made to see it in our daily lives. Tech is a meritocracy for white dudes. For everyone else, it is a little bit meritocracy, and a little bit toxic environment where they are made to feel their minority status on a regular basis. I'm not saying this because I…

> As white dudes we don't see race or gender, because we aren't made to see it in our daily lives.

Speak for yourself. I've worked in print and manufacturing before starting programming - I've seen factory workers disregard female supervisor orders and regularly fake the tasks, commenting on her "lack of sex", "hormones", even to their face and regularly behind their back etc. At the same time they would shut up and do their shit when told the same thing by a male super. I've seen old department manager lead print finish section with a bunch of women in low skill/paying roles literally talk to them like they are his lessers and he was actively hostile and attempted to sabotage a woman who got hired as an engineer (which outranks him in terms of skill).

I've seen real sexism, and I've also seen discrimination based on nationality where it actually impacts people every day jobs and hiring/firing/promotions.

Calling the things I see described as examples of sexism and racism and what I've personally seen on job is a joke compared to what women and foreigners had to go through in low skilled industries with more uneducated and older people.

Programmers like you live in a bubble - I see people like you complain about culture/wages/work conditions in tech industry without having any grasp on what the world looks like outside of tech. I've met guys who work with electricity or work on highly dangerous positions where their life is at risk at any moment and your first mistake could very well be your last, people working in hazardous environments that 100% take a physical tool on you (eg. high probability you will end up with cancer and the likes) - and even with 20+ years of experience at the same job they were making about the same what I was getting when I started coding and my pay only grew since then. I earned more than a person who went through med school and if I fucked up nobody died or got disabled. Programmers have it super good right now and the industry is filled with highly educated smart people

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#65

Post by DannyBee »

SwellJoe wrote: post #54
DannyBee wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time) that the community is on their side when sexists or racists show up. " If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributor…

Of course a CoC can't make a community actually do anything. These are Open Source communities we're talking about here, and nobody can make anyone do anything at all. You're alleging that a CoC is meaningless, but why implement a CoC, as a community, if you don't actually want more women and people of color becoming involved in your projects? The CoC is the signal saying, "We, as a community, want you to feel welcom…

"You're alleging that a CoC is meaningless, but why implement a CoC, as a community, if you don't actually want more women and people of color becoming involved in your projects? The CoC is the signal saying, "We, as a community, want you to feel welcome here.""

See the part where i directly answer this: "If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributors,"

IE if people stop going to projects without COC's, people will add COC's.

I'm not sure why you think anything else will happen.

"So, to repeat, a CoC is a signal of desire to be inclusive."

It is this second. As I said, if it becomes a thing people look for, it will no longer be that, because everyone will just add them and ignore them. It will no longer be a signal for what you are looking for. It will achieve precisely nothing.

Again, I'm honestly befuddled why you think anything else would happen

Do you really think normal people trying to start projects are going to say "well, i really want to attract contributors of all kinds, and it seems i have to have a COC, that i don't care about, to do that, but i guess it would just be wrong to have a COC if i don't care?"

Or do you think they are just going to say "well, i really want to attract contributors of all kinds, i better add a COC that i don't really care about".

I mean, this is already happening. How many projects are like our OP, and basically go and say "well, i should probably add a COC, but i don't really care".

You need look no further than things like yellow/pink ribbons/flag pins senators wear/etc to see what will happen. These things were once signals of people who cared. Now they are just social norms.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#67

Post by tibiapejagala »

rdtsc wrote: post #16

I don't understand. The people who are -1, what do they care if it is adopted? Is CoC that controversial? Are personal attacks, doxing, trolling and slurs part of their daily routine they will be seriously inconvenienced by inability to use them? --- * The use of sexualized language or imagery * Personal attacks * Trolling or insulting/derogatory comments * Public or private harassment * Publishing other's private in…

>Are personal attacks, doxing, trolling and slurs part of their daily routine they will be seriously inconvenienced by inability to use them?

Just because they don't agree with having CoC doesn't mean they do anything CoC disallows. The same with people fighting for free speech or freedom of association - at least one of them is not a hate speech using KKK member.

Nice passive-aggressive personal attack though. Maybe CoC isn't that bad idea after all.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#68

Post by 13thLetter »

SwellJoe wrote: post #8
WizzleKake wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time This is an odd assumption to make.

Is it? It may seem that way to a white dude (I'm a white dude, and I suffered from the delusion that tech communities were inclusive for decades), surrounded by white dudes. You're not alone...lots of people think tech is inclusive. I always assumed that our communities were more welcoming than usual, despite the evidence to the contrary in the form of such low historic participation by women and people of color in t…

"It may seem that way to a white dude (I'm a white dude..."

Out of curiosity, why are you referring to white men as "white dudes"? No one ever says "white chicks," after all.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#69

Post by [deleted] »

dmgbrn wrote: post #60
SwellJoe wrote: post #4

I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time) that the community is on their side when sexists or racists show up. That has some value. It doesn't really matter to the majority, and it doesn't actually alter…

This, absolutely. Communities can be healthy without a CoC, or unhealthy with one. But having a CoC sends a big, clear message to women and other groups frequently marginalized in the tech scene that your project is healthy and welcoming. Here's why that's a big deal: joining an open source project is an investment. If you are a woman, or black, or trans, or god forbid, some combination thereof in tech, you really do…

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