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Status of Sails.js

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Re: Status of Sails.js

#61

Post by kyllo »

jondubois wrote: post #47
kyllo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you know, you could just hire developers who know more than one programming language.

Yeah, but that narrows down your pool of developers a lot. There are a lot more JavaScript developers than there are JavaScript developers who also happen know RoR. I mean, sure, someone could learn RoR on the job, but in practice, will they actually do it? In all companies I worked for where the frontend and backend languages were different, developers tended to stick to one side of the fence. Developers just don't…

Did I say that Ruby on Rails was the only option?

On the other hand, if a developer cannot figure out Ruby on Rails (or Sinatra, or Django, or Flask, or any of the PHP frameworks), and does not even know SQL, do they really have any business doing server-side web development?

Knowing JavaScript and one server-side web app framework/language is a pretty minimal requirement for a full-stack web developer. It boggles my mind to think that there are people working as professional developers that literally only know JavaScript. Those people should not be doing server-side development.

Re: Status of Sails.js

#62

Post by duhruh »

traviswebb wrote: post #32
duhruh wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I've noticed this too, mostly because Travis threw up a comment on multiple GH issues on my Sails library e.g. https://github.com/waterlock/waterlock/issues/99#issuecommen... I've looked over these issues and noticed Travis is just copy/pasting the same message stating "Sails.js is no longer actively maintained". It seems like this guy has a real vendetta against Mike (the creator of Sails) and is dead set on get…

Personal or not, our entire company is devoted to making Trails the best damn backend framework for node. We don't distract ourselves with VC-funded side projects, and we don't have a automated bot that closes everyone's issues (see: SailsBot). Our company lives off consulting around the open-source tools we build and support. That's it.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing man i understand the situation in fact i'm pretty excited to see what Trails has to offer, I was even hoping to make waterlock trails compatible or work on something for Trails. I'm just saying it's important to keep these things upfront, i commend you and your company for taking on this task and like you said before (somewhere i forget) it's refreshing to be transparent about the motivations and issues at hand.

Re: Status of Sails.js

#63

Post by untog »

duhruh wrote: post #8
jph wrote: post #4

Compare the new Trails JS: https://github.com/trailsjs/trails The Trails project is developing thanks to Travis Webb and team, and his reasons are described in the pull request. The Trails README includes this intro: "Trails is built and maintained by former members of the Sails.js core team, and offers an upgrade path from existing Sails applications, but it utilizes exactly zero lines of code from the original Sail…

Yea I've noticed this too, mostly because Travis threw up a comment on multiple GH issues on my Sails library e.g. https://github.com/waterlock/waterlock/issues/99#issuecommen... I've looked over these issues and noticed Travis is just copy/pasting the same message stating "Sails.js is no longer actively maintained". It seems like this guy has a real vendetta against Mike (the creator of Sails) and is dead set on get…

I saw this discussion because Travis paid to promote a tweet to it. I'm still not sure what would inspire a person to do such a thing, and clicked to find out why. I'm still no closer to an answer.

Re: Status of Sails.js

#64

Post by joeblau »

sisk wrote: post #34
joeblau wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when I first saw the Treeline demo, I was blown away. It seemed like a great framework for striking web services together to solve problems and build great products. Over the past year, I've become weary of any frameworks that sit on top of Node. I currently run gitignore.io and I've had problems using Kraken.js due to lack of updates to the framework or incompatible dependency maintenance. If I were to go…

Hey Joe. Would love to better understand the problems you've been having. Mind firing off an issue to discuss?

Problems with Kraken.js? I don't use Treeline.

Re: Status of Sails.js

#65

Post by dvt »

SignMeTheHELLUp wrote: post #28
dvt wrote: post #27

I've used sails.js for many (many) projects including gameref.io, hackjob.io, and on several internal projects at my current job. I find it ideal for prototyping and small-to-medium-sized projects. I really hope it doesn't die as I love the pipelined approach it takes. @SignMeTheHELLUp is complaining about Waterline ORM, but I'd argue that Hibernate is worse (and it's an "industry standard"). It's just a fact of life…

> SignMeTheHELLUp is complaining about Waterline ORM, but I'd argue that Hibernate is worse Are you serious. Hibernate and all it's language-specific variants are actual feature-complete ORMs. Waterline falls flat as soon as you get past eager-fetching a child property. It's a toy. I wasn't just complaining about Waterline either. Every time I had issues with Sails I had to dip into the Sails source and patch bugs ou…

I linked to toy projects, I never claimed otherwise. Some people, however, use Sails.js for real business solutions.

> I wasn't just complaining about Waterline either. Every time I had issues with Sails I had to dip into the Sails source and patch bugs out, eventually I replaced parts of Sails with libraries that actually worked.

I don't even know what this means. Sails is basically just a router on top of express with grunt tying everything together. What part of sails did you have to "replace"? The i18n? Let's not be dramatic here.

But then again, your post about staying away from Node just showed how unhinged you are. I'm no language zealot, but that's just ignorant to say when world-class companies are using Node on incredible scales.

Re: Status of Sails.js

#66

Post by dvt »

rargulati wrote: post #38
SignMeTheHELLUp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SignMeTheHELLUp is complaining about Waterline ORM, but I'd argue that Hibernate is worse Are you serious. Hibernate and all it's language-specific variants are actual feature-complete ORMs. Waterline falls flat as soon as you get past eager-fetching a child property. It's a toy. I wasn't just complaining about Waterline either. Every time I had issues with Sails I had to dip into the Sails source and patch bugs ou…

> Every time I had issues with Sails I had to dip into the Sails source and patch bugs out, eventually I replaced parts of Sails with libraries that actually worked. By the end of the project the only "Sails" left was the routing component... Would love to hear more about this - if time permits, would be a great write-up.

I have a feeling it's just nonsense. There's not much to re-write to begin with. Sails.js is a thin-ish layer on top of express that uses grunt to tie everything together. Waterline is the biggest component, but it's not even technically part of Sails.js proper.

Re: Status of Sails.js

#67

Post by dbg31415 »

traviswebb wrote: post #59
dbg31415 wrote: post #58

Little more digging... here's what I think is going on, and it's sad. I've pieced this together based on Google searches. Sails was started by Mike McNeil, who also started a company called Balderdash to do consulting and dev work using Sails. From what I can tell Balderdash isn't quite a "real" company in that everyone listed as working there also does other things at present ( http://i.imgur.com/dFVQawi.png ). (Mik…

Your assessment is perfectly logical based on the information you have available, and also mostly wrong. First, I'm not 22, and our COO ran the largest jQuery cobsulting firm (appendTo) for 5 years. Second, McNeil did not hire us, we purchased the company; McNeil has no ownership in the "new" Balderdash. Your educated guesses about hitting metrics and so forth don't apply to anything here. Mike McNeil needs control o…

Not sure how Mike can kick you out if he doesn't own the company. Sounds like either he does own the company, or he's not the one who kicked you out... Anyway I'm inclined to believe the company website. If you bought the company you've got access to the site? DNS? Or a contract? Doesn't seem like that's the case given your actions trying to get people to move away from Sails.

So yeah, you saying the project is dead when you know others are still working on it, and trying to tell other people to switch with you -- seems at best shady. Getting a project rolling is hard enough without an active saboteur. Not a great way to get your own business going. Seems to me -- outsider perspective -- you should just move on and focus on your own thing. Clean breaks, right?

Re: Status of Sails.js

#69

Post by traviswebb »

dbg31415 wrote: post #67
traviswebb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assessment is perfectly logical based on the information you have available, and also mostly wrong. First, I'm not 22, and our COO ran the largest jQuery cobsulting firm (appendTo) for 5 years. Second, McNeil did not hire us, we purchased the company; McNeil has no ownership in the "new" Balderdash. Your educated guesses about hitting metrics and so forth don't apply to anything here. Mike McNeil needs control o…

Not sure how Mike can kick you out if he doesn't own the company. Sounds like either he does own the company, or he's not the one who kicked you out... Anyway I'm inclined to believe the company website. If you bought the company you've got access to the site? DNS? Or a contract? Doesn't seem like that's the case given your actions trying to get people to move away from Sails. So yeah, you saying the project is dead…

He owned some of the assets, still, including the github org. Even though we negotiated an agreement, and were operating the company under the assumptions of that agreement, McNeil refused to sign it at the last minute and spent the past two months clawing everything back that he could. We still own the Balderdash LinkedIn page and npm account, for example.

He refuses to speak with me directly, so there's no resolution to this yet. Nor do we really understand why he decided on this course of action at all. I hope to bring things back to some equilibrium, but one permanent change is that we are no longer supporting Sails, and are directing all our efforts toward developing Trails.

The maintained-ness of Sails is really a separate issue from the ceo-schism drama. There are plenty of other literature which discuss the technical deficits of Sails, and the incredible amount of work it needs merely to be viable as an enterprise framework. That it relies on EOL'd dependencies, and has no plans to upgrade them, is an example.

Re: Status of Sails.js

#70

Post by uniacid »

dbg31415 wrote: post #67
traviswebb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assessment is perfectly logical based on the information you have available, and also mostly wrong. First, I'm not 22, and our COO ran the largest jQuery cobsulting firm (appendTo) for 5 years. Second, McNeil did not hire us, we purchased the company; McNeil has no ownership in the "new" Balderdash. Your educated guesses about hitting metrics and so forth don't apply to anything here. Mike McNeil needs control o…

Not sure how Mike can kick you out if he doesn't own the company. Sounds like either he does own the company, or he's not the one who kicked you out... Anyway I'm inclined to believe the company website. If you bought the company you've got access to the site? DNS? Or a contract? Doesn't seem like that's the case given your actions trying to get people to move away from Sails. So yeah, you saying the project is dead…

Having witnessed feuds between Founder and CEO before they're never a pretty sight, so thats why the future of Sails.js has been very disconcerting.

Hopefully relationships can be amended amicably and if Sails.js is truly dead in the water then hopefully Trails.js will pick up where it left off and on better footing I hope, but it will take some time and also some proper PR might of been helpful to the many Sails.js users as well as it didn't need to reach this point, also on that PR note should we expect that they can easily port over their Sails.js projects over to Trails.js?

I was hoping to re-visit Sails.js for a project but considering all that's been happening I'm not sure I should just go with something else like Python+Flask and let Trails.js mature a bit more.

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