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The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#61

Post by riahi »

rdtsc wrote: post #2

Apparently there is also a disadvantage -- a higher risk of developing stuttering. I know from experience (n=1), but there is some interesting research on the topic as well: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=stuttering+bilingual+chi...

Prior to college, I only spoke 3 languages (Persian/Spanish/English) and didn't have this problem at all, since all three were learned when younger. However, in college, I took Portuguese for Spanish native speakers and got conversationally fluent really fast. But, as a consequence, it seems I've started stuttering in English, while knowing the word in Persian instead. I wonder if this is related to my Portuguese...

Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#62

Post by earl »

lionhearted wrote: post #37
nfnaaron wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not much of a perceived advantage to study a 2nd language as an American, because no matter where you go there's probably someone who speaks English, and chances are that wherever you go few if any speak the 2nd language that you studied as a kid. There's small payoff for an American to study a 2nd language. There's large payoff for people from non-English speaking countries to study English; it must be true or…

> There's small payoff for an American to study a 2nd language. Good point - never thought of it like that. > I'd like to see Spanish mandatory or commonly studied to fluency, given the demographic changes in America. Really? I'd say going the opposite would have potentially more advantages. Mandarin, Russian, Hindi, Japanese, or Korean - something where you'd be one of the relatively few Americans bilingual in both…

I used to think similarly, but I've been mostly unable to find any real advantages to fluency in difficult foreign languages. NB: I don't want to work for the government or doing outsourcing, the two obvious places to use foreign language skills. So, this is at least partly my own desires, but I think my point hold: I see very slim returns to the time spent learning another language to fluency. Far better to spend that 2-4 thousand hours on programming, math, etc.

Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#63

Post by Kliment »

eru wrote: post #33

Interesting that most of the discussion here makes bilingualism seem like the pinnacle of achievement. But I guess I belittle bilingualism because I am fluent in two languages and strive for three or four.

I'm fluent in four, but the vast majority of people in the US appear to speak only one. The case is similar in Germany, France and Spain, at least from my experience. As such, bilingualism is not a pinnacle of achievement (is anything ever a pinnacle of achievement) but rather a recognition that ANY other language has value of this kind. Once you get past "I can do just fine with one." you can go as far as you like. But the step from one to two seems to be the critical one.

Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#64

Post by oscardelben »

davidw wrote: post #38
nfnaaron wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not much of a perceived advantage to study a 2nd language as an American, because no matter where you go there's probably someone who speaks English, and chances are that wherever you go few if any speak the 2nd language that you studied as a kid. There's small payoff for an American to study a 2nd language. There's large payoff for people from non-English speaking countries to study English; it must be true or…

I think it's more a lack of opportunity to utilize a second language. If you spend any length of time somewhere where, yes, you can sort of get by with English, but it's not the native language, you really start to want to learn more. In the US, your opportunities are quite limited... Mexico or Quebec are your only major options, and that's a lot of travel for many people. From Padova where I am, on the other hand, I…

The opportunity will come after you've learnt the language. Honestly I live in Italy, and I wish they had spent more time teaching english to me. It's a shame that in north europe most people are fluent in english while here only a few are.

Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#66

Post by eru »

Kliment wrote: post #63
eru wrote: post #33

Interesting that most of the discussion here makes bilingualism seem like the pinnacle of achievement. But I guess I belittle bilingualism because I am fluent in two languages and strive for three or four.

I'm fluent in four, but the vast majority of people in the US appear to speak only one. The case is similar in Germany, France and Spain, at least from my experience. As such, bilingualism is not a pinnacle of achievement (is anything ever a pinnacle of achievement) but rather a recognition that ANY other language has value of this kind. Once you get past "I can do just fine with one." you can go as far as you like.…

Yes, I agree.

Most young people in Germany seem to be able to speak at least some English. Almost all university students do. Bilingualism is prevalent in countries that have a first language other than English, since everyone accept that learning English is necessary.

(Disclaimer: I was born in Germany.)

Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#67

Post by pbhjpbhj »

timwiseman wrote: post #48
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> learning a second language in school has enough ancillary benefits to make it mandatory Would you include in this those who can't use a first language to any reasonable degree. Or those who already have the main language of the country (English say) as their second language? I'm generally against mandatory subjects in education as it tends not to reflect the vast differences in experience and background, motivation…

I'm generally against mandatory subjects in education as it tends not to reflect the vast differences in experience and background, motivation and ability of the students. At a higher education level (say College on up) I would be strongly inclined to agree with you. Give the students freedom and they will make the right choices for themselves, and they will be the only ones to live with it if they don't. At the basi…

>To answer your direct questions though, someone who cannot use a first language to any reasonable degree either has a learning disability or has been failed by the education system.

Or, isn't bothered about learning anything. Without being over manipulative you can't give some one an education unless they are an active participant in that process. Also parenting is a key element.

I still consider that the fix for those who have not been taught or have not learnt a first language well is not to burden the [broken] system and the student with attempting to learn a further additional language.

Minor side point - I see quite a lot of kids who if they make a noise have a dummy stuffed into their mouths. I'm sure you can recover largely from no language practice for the first few years of life but I can't help thinking that most in that situation don't.

Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#68

Post by furyg3 »

bugs wrote: post #39
lionhearted wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's small payoff for an American to study a 2nd language. Good point - never thought of it like that. > I'd like to see Spanish mandatory or commonly studied to fluency, given the demographic changes in America. Really? I'd say going the opposite would have potentially more advantages. Mandarin, Russian, Hindi, Japanese, or Korean - something where you'd be one of the relatively few Americans bilingual in both…

Spanish would be of much more use to Americans because there are so many Spanish speakers in America especially in states near the border. I live in a southern state and many conversations here interchange Spanish and English words where best fit when speaking to other bilinguals

Not to mention it would completely reverse the role of immigrant children in the classrooms.

A decade ago (maybe still) there was a debate in California: what's the best way to educate Spanish-speaking kids? Do we start immersing them in English right away? or do we start off in Spanish, and slowly transition them to English?

Meanwhile, I was in High School being taught how important it is to learn a 2nd language, of which the preferred selection is Spanish. High School, especially Jr/Sr years, has got to be one of the worst times to learn a language...

The answer is obvious: (where possible) teach both languages to both kids right from the get-go, which would also have some equalization effect in the schools.

Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#69

Post by Tuna-Fish »

theycallmemorty wrote: post #28
nfnaaron wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not much of a perceived advantage to study a 2nd language as an American, because no matter where you go there's probably someone who speaks English, and chances are that wherever you go few if any speak the 2nd language that you studied as a kid. There's small payoff for an American to study a 2nd language. There's large payoff for people from non-English speaking countries to study English; it must be true or…

Mono-lingual Canadian here with a question for both of you: What do adolescents in your countries think of learning english? Most anglophone Canadians start learning french in grade 4, unless their parents put them in an immersion program at a younger age. In Ontario we were required to take French until grade 9 and after that the VAST majority of us stopped because we hated it. Is it like that with English in other…

Finland has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. Schoolchildren start learning English at grade 3, and Swedish at grade 7. Swedish is widely hated and outright despised, while people just Generally learn English and consider it a part of the education.

Perhaps the difference is that there is so much English culture everywhere that you can't avoid it, while if you are not from near the Swedish-speaking areas, you will never actually use the language.

Re: The Neural Advantage of Speaking 2 Languages

#70

Post by timwiseman »

PieSquared wrote: post #58
timwiseman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally against mandatory subjects in education as it tends not to reflect the vast differences in experience and background, motivation and ability of the students. At a higher education level (say College on up) I would be strongly inclined to agree with you. Give the students freedom and they will make the right choices for themselves, and they will be the only ones to live with it if they don't. At the basi…

Aurgh! Your comment is on one hand something I really want to respond to, yet on the other hand difficult for me to respond to well. > At a higher education level (say College on up) I would be strongly inclined to agree with you. Give the students freedom and they will make the right choices for themselves, and they will be the only ones to live with it if they don't. > At the basic education level (high school and…

You make a lot of interesting points.

It's teaching us to hate the 'mandatory' subjects, because everyone has to take them, and thus the teachers can't teach it well because 3/4 of their classes are utterly uninterested.

I ran into this as well. I was fortunate in having a high school with a high percentage of AP classes and those were much closer to collage classes than high school classes. But remember in college they have mandatory courses too.

If a course in high school is mandatory it means that someone has decided it is beneficial for most of society to understand that subject and I disagree with some of the details, but there is obvious benefit to having an educated society.

One way to at least help alleviate what you are describing is to offer more classes, more AP style classes, develop cooperatives with local community colleges so some students can take classes there instead of at the high school, and to let people test out of classes if they have already mastered the subject.

This is even harder to argue with, because of the "most". I guess it's that old argument: would you rather allow the more gifted to excel, or everyone be held at the same level (with that level being slightly higher than had you went with the other option)?

You can allow the gifted(loaded term, but that is a different topic) to excel while ensuring everyone has every opportunity and incentive to meet the minimums. They are not mutually exclusive.

The sticking point of course is that to do that we would need a lot more resources in the education system than we have now, but I think that as a society we should spend a lot more on education.

My point: in almost all places in the USA, other languages are useless.

I think that is going to far, but I would agree with in the US another language is of limited value. And for an English speaker, you will find a relatively high percentage of people in most other countries speak at least some English.

But, as the original article pointed out, learning a second language helps develop your mind. It can also give you better perspective on another culture.

It is the ancillary benefits that are highly valuable rather than the skill itself for most English speakers.

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