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The Last Dalai Lama?

nytimes.com

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Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#61

Post by Alex3917 »

firstworldman wrote: post #54
Alex3917 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple books about it. The other place they trained them was in Ithaca, which is why there is still a big tibetan community there and that's where the Dalai Lama's summer home is. It's a pretty crazy story though; iirc after China found out about the program the CIA just disowned them rather than helping to further support or extract them, and just left them all over there to die.

Any books you'd recommend?

I haven't read any of them, but there are a few with good reviews on Amazon.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#62

Post by DominikR »

notahacker wrote: post #59
DominikR wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I don't doubt that these people really want to secede, but undoubtably some rather large component of this is created by external support. Throughout history nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries, this is nothing new. I don't put any extraordinary blame on the US for this, it's what most powerful nations are doing in their quest for even more power. About the Cherokee…

I think it's palpable nonsense to suggest that the US or other outside forces are behind all or indeed many of the world's regional minority groups desires to speak their own language, practice their own religion and run their own region in their own way. What evidence do you have to back up your insinuation the US is backing the various Uighur factions? Frankly, it's pretty insulting to their culture to imagine they…

World Uyghur Congress which allegedly represents the "collective interests of the Uyghur peoples" is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy and it's president is living in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Uyghur_Congress

So please don't tell me there is no interest. If the US government was impartial then they would at least refrain from funding this group as it is not their business to interfere in internal conflicts of foreign countries without UN resolution.

> it's pretty insulting to their culture to imagine they'd be freely and happily assimilating Han Chinese culture

China has pretty strong minority rights and the Uyghurs even have their own autonomous region.

But aside from that: No one will happily assimilate. The strong will always crush the weak. Did the native Americans happily assimilate? I heard there were 100 million of them before the settlers came. Where have they gone?

Edit: Nowhere did I insinuate that they would happily assimilate. Aside from that, this is not only a thing that authoritarian regimes do.

In the EU it currently seems as if every politician is thinking about how to assimilate the Muslims. Trust me, no one is going to ask them if they want to assimilate.

They will be forced. And this in a full fledged democracy.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#63

Post by kelukelugames »

ivoras wrote: post #48
nkurz wrote: post #2

"The Dalai Lama’s second-oldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, helped the C.I.A. train Tibetan guerrillas in Colorado, among other places, and parachute them back into Tibet." I had no idea the US had done this. This link has more details: http://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet.htm As does Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

Some sources hold that the US hasn't ever stopped doing such shenanigans. I wonder what will be thought of articles such as https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/iraqis-thin... a decade or two in the future.

My grandparents were generals in the Chinese military. When my parents and their siblings came to the US for grad school, they were all approached by the CIA.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#64

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

notahacker wrote: post #59
DominikR wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I don't doubt that these people really want to secede, but undoubtably some rather large component of this is created by external support. Throughout history nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries, this is nothing new. I don't put any extraordinary blame on the US for this, it's what most powerful nations are doing in their quest for even more power. About the Cherokee…

I think it's palpable nonsense to suggest that the US or other outside forces are behind all or indeed many of the world's regional minority groups desires to speak their own language, practice their own religion and run their own region in their own way. What evidence do you have to back up your insinuation the US is backing the various Uighur factions? Frankly, it's pretty insulting to their culture to imagine they…

>"China has pretty strong minority rights and the Uyghurs even have their own autonomous region." No, China is demographically trying to wipe out both the Tibetans and the Uighurs. The latter being one of the last conquests of Imperial China.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#65

Post by DominikR »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #64
notahacker wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's palpable nonsense to suggest that the US or other outside forces are behind all or indeed many of the world's regional minority groups desires to speak their own language, practice their own religion and run their own region in their own way. What evidence do you have to back up your insinuation the US is backing the various Uighur factions? Frankly, it's pretty insulting to their culture to imagine they…

>"China has pretty strong minority rights and the Uyghurs even have their own autonomous region." No, China is demographically trying to wipe out both the Tibetans and the Uighurs. The latter being one of the last conquests of Imperial China.

Listen, we may disagree but for a fruitful discussion I'd expect more than just a reply stating "NO".

About the other statement you made: I cannot tell if the Chinese intend to demographically wipe them out, there's no official statement or document stating this, at least I'm not aware of that.

But as far as I see the current argument boils down to: They allow the Han to settle in this area and the Han do. Please explain why it should be forbidden for the Han to settle in some area that is part of their country?

And why would this automatically be equal to an attempt to wipe some population out?

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#66

Post by lawpoop »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #36
atlantic wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What does Dalai Lama have to do with Buddhism? The Dalai Lama is not the head of Buddhism but the head of Tibet The Dalai Lama is considered by religious Tibetans to be the incarnation of Avalokiteshvara, the Tibetan Buddhist deity that personifies compassion. So your question makes about as much sense as asking what Jesus has to do with Christianity.

Yes, but the point is that Tibetan Buddhism is a small subset of Buddhism. It's also the furthest from 'orthodox' Buddhism. And within that division, the Dalai Lama's specific sect is yet again another division. The Dalai Lama is to Buddhism what, say, the Archbishop of Canterbury is (possibly of even lesser historical importance) to Christianity. His only real importance came about as a result of clever marketing of…

> It's also the furthest from 'orthodox' Buddhism

Further than Zen? Which branch are you considering orthodox? And how are you measuring distance from it?

> Archbishop of Canterbury

So, a world-recognized religious leader?

Who in Buddhism would you count as a peer, or someone more important than the Dalai Lama, in the present day?

Whatever the reason he became famous for, he's probably done probably the single most influential figure to influence the West's familiarity and understanding of Buddhism.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#67

Post by notahacker »

DominikR wrote: post #62
notahacker wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's palpable nonsense to suggest that the US or other outside forces are behind all or indeed many of the world's regional minority groups desires to speak their own language, practice their own religion and run their own region in their own way. What evidence do you have to back up your insinuation the US is backing the various Uighur factions? Frankly, it's pretty insulting to their culture to imagine they…

World Uyghur Congress which allegedly represents the "collective interests of the Uyghur peoples" is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy and it's president is living in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Uyghur_Congress So please don't tell me there is no interest. If the US government was impartial then they would at least refrain from funding this group as it is not their business to interfere i…

> No-one will happily assimilate

I think you made my point for me. The fact that one of the many exiled lobby groups chooses to take money from a US funded vehicle is essentially irrelevant to why some Uighurs want independence.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#68

Post by legulere »

maus42 wrote: post #55
DominikR wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the majority of Tibetans were before the Chinese slaves in an absolutist monarchy/theocracy that used extremely cruel torture and punishments. (amputation of limbs, skinning, cutting off ears/noses) Let's be honest here, this whole Free Tibet business is just about pressuring the…

Justifying a tyrannical government by virtue of the previous government having been a tyranny too doesn't persuade anyone. For the US government, whatever it does is always about its interests, because that's what governments are about. However, that's just the reason why being a small nation sucks, like any resident of a small country can tell you. Sometimes their plight even manages to gather some popular sympathy[…

It persuades people that are told that Tibet should get the old Dalai Lama as dictator system back.

China is criticized as an oppressive regime in tibet by people that at the same time cater to a wannabe dictator.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#69

Post by vinceguidry »

maus42 wrote: post #55
DominikR wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the majority of Tibetans were before the Chinese slaves in an absolutist monarchy/theocracy that used extremely cruel torture and punishments. (amputation of limbs, skinning, cutting off ears/noses) Let's be honest here, this whole Free Tibet business is just about pressuring the…

Justifying a tyrannical government by virtue of the previous government having been a tyranny too doesn't persuade anyone. For the US government, whatever it does is always about its interests, because that's what governments are about. However, that's just the reason why being a small nation sucks, like any resident of a small country can tell you. Sometimes their plight even manages to gather some popular sympathy[…

> Justifying a tyrannical government by virtue of the previous government having been a tyranny too doesn't persuade anyone.

It doesn't persuade you. Those of us who've been watching various forms of autocracy spring up and get overthrown throughout history appreciate progress where we can get it.

The situation in Tibet has a historical precedent. Hebrews living under Roman rule in the kingdom of Judea. Both were theocratic countries whose populations were really, really invested in traditional rule. Both had constant foreign interference from bigger and more powerful states. One had their entire population massacred and their places of worship burned to the ground.

The Romans were pragmatic and tolerated the eccentricities of the Judeans for hundreds of years, happy to take tribute and let them live the way they want to live. But the Judeans wanted more, and declared independence from Rome.

It's tough as an imperial administrator to know where to draw the line. By historical standards, the CCP is remarkably patient with its wayward sons.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#70

Post by guard-of-terra »

DominikR wrote: post #60
guard-of-terra wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries" They were also used to create countries in the first place. Remove nationalism, religious and ethnical union from a country and it starts to fall apart, just like Jugoslavia did.

I like your thought but Yugoslavia is (I think) a bad example for this. (I came from there) There was no religious or ethnical union, of that I am 100% sure, and I'm also not convinced of nationalism there. The unifying ideology was socialism/communism. It is understandable why this did work so well in a country with no clear religious or ethnic majority because it tends to flat out deny any ethnic/cultural differenc…

Yugoslavia turned to be an unnatural union and was swept by tidal forces. It lacked glue and unifying ideology expired in the end.

This is a lesson why you need religious or ethnic union, or nationalism. Why else you are country X and not country Y or Z?

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