Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The End of the Internet Dream

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 212 posts

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#61

Post by spython »

fx85ms wrote: post #55
TeMPOraL wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to demonize for-profit work (at least not in this comment). My point is, there's money to be made off breaking the Internet, and there's little money to be made off fixing it. > You know where those evil profits ultimately come from? People paying to have their needs satisfied. Satisfying someone's needs doesn't justify anything. Not all needs are meant to be satisfied - especially if they conflict wit…

YES thanks for this! I've seen too many people justify something that could be considered immoral by invoking this "but it satisfies user needs" pseudo-argument.

It is great fun, when any previous authority is replaced by the logic of the market. What thrives, they say, deserves to thrive, what fails, deserves to fail. Their argument is, if people really wanted a better world, they would have it already. Which is of course foolish, the market doesn't care about good or evil.

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#62

Post by TeMPOraL »

im2w1l wrote: post #40
TeMPOraL wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship isn't about total, fool-proof access limits. It's about trivial inconveniences[0]. "The human longing for freedom of information is a terrible and wonderful thing. It delineates a pivotal difference between mental emancipation and slavery. It has launched protests, rebellions, and revolutions. Thousands have devoted their lives to it, thousands of others have even died for it. And it can be stopped dead in…

>Censorship isn't about total, fool-proof access limits. It's about trivial inconveniences. That's because we have won a partial victory. They would very much like a total, fool-proof access limit.

They don't care, because there's little marginal gain from improving on the results they already have. Even better, having holes in their wall helps relieve pressure. It's just like the old Sun Tzu adage about the line of retreat - you should leave one for enemy soldiers because if you encircle them completely, they'll realize they have nothing to lose and fight fiercely until they die.

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#63

Post by adventured »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #46
askafriend wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say that the profit driven world is ending?

I'd say it's collapsing on itself. It's trying to optimize people out of the loop, but is not yet able to sustain itself without humans. Nor will the humans lay down and die without giving a fight.

Capitalism optimizes people into the loop in fact. It pulls more people into higher standards of living, and produces more jobs for people.

We have four billion more people than 50 years ago, and more people have jobs today globally than at any other time in history, and less people are in poverty, and there's more food available for everyone, and famines are almost non-existent, and the infant mortality rate has been drastically reduced, and the global life expectancy keeps rising, and a hundred other things that prove you wrong.

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#64

Post by darkr »

wcummings wrote: post #4

I think Snowden's disclosures were a loss of innocence for many technologists, and this reflects that. I can't imagine this would have been written in his absence.

I disagree. Given the track record of the various 3 letter agencies over the past 50 years; any hacker who didn't think, prior to the Snowden leaks, that the NSA had cast a far-reaching net was naive in the extreme.

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#65

Post by SpaghettiCat »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #45
austerity wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know where those evil profits ultimately come from? People paying to have their needs satisfied. I make a decent living providing people with solutions to some of the problems described in this article (censorship and fragmentation) and I'm not ashamed to say I am driven purely by profit.

I'm not trying to demonize for-profit work (at least not in this comment). My point is, there's money to be made off breaking the Internet, and there's little money to be made off fixing it. > You know where those evil profits ultimately come from? People paying to have their needs satisfied. Satisfying someone's needs doesn't justify anything. Not all needs are meant to be satisfied - especially if they conflict wit…

> Satisfying someone's needs doesn't justify anything. Not all needs are meant to be satisfied - especially if they conflict with the needs of others, whether directly or by generating externalities.

What cases are you talking about? If a consumer pays for something, they want it. What is the evil of supplying a consumer with what they want? If they don't want it they don't have to buy it. If they don't like it they don't have to use it. Ultimately, the decision is up to the consumer for what is the for them.

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#66

Post by mdpopescu »

spython wrote: post #61
fx85ms wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES thanks for this! I've seen too many people justify something that could be considered immoral by invoking this "but it satisfies user needs" pseudo-argument.

It is great fun, when any previous authority is replaced by the logic of the market. What thrives, they say, deserves to thrive, what fails, deserves to fail. Their argument is, if people really wanted a better world, they would have it already. Which is of course foolish, the market doesn't care about good or evil.

"The market" is people. You just said that people don't care about good or evil. I submit that this is an exaggeration.

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#67

Post by lostlogin »

baddox wrote: post #58
fx85ms wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES thanks for this! I've seen too many people justify something that could be considered immoral by invoking this "but it satisfies user needs" pseudo-argument.

I've seen a heck of a lot more people justify things by claiming to have objective moral knowledge. Throughout history, the most atrocious acts imaginable have been justified this way. I am much less worried about invoking the satisfaction of people's needs.

The subtle distinction between "want" and "need" is at the root of this. What the user wants is at odds with what they need.

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#68

Post by mdpopescu »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #57
meddlepal wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's an often forgotten (perhaps purposefully to push an agenda in some circles?) part of these discussions about corporations and business models. They're just driven by demand. It's not some shady nebulous force at work trying to screw everything and everyone. Another problem, idealists often ignore the practical realities of a society when dreaming of their idealist visions for the future. Could the intern…

> corporations and business models. They're just driven by demand. It's not some shady nebulous force at work trying to screw everything and everyone. Oh it's not shady in the sense that it has agency and decides to screw everything up. But it's very powerful and increasingly misaligned with the interest of humans. Being driven by demand does not map well to the shared wishes and morals of humanity, only if because o…

I generally upvote your comments but I think this one is far too pessimistic. You're worrying about coordination problems on the internet? That's like, I don't know, worrying about dying of thirst in the middle of the ocean.

Oh wait... :P

On a more serious note, though, I think this is just another problem to be solved. Long-term, I am an absolute optimist: everything will get better, everywhere. Short-term, I admit there are some speed bumps :)

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#69

Post by qznc »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #57
meddlepal wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's an often forgotten (perhaps purposefully to push an agenda in some circles?) part of these discussions about corporations and business models. They're just driven by demand. It's not some shady nebulous force at work trying to screw everything and everyone. Another problem, idealists often ignore the practical realities of a society when dreaming of their idealist visions for the future. Could the intern…

> corporations and business models. They're just driven by demand. It's not some shady nebulous force at work trying to screw everything and everyone. Oh it's not shady in the sense that it has agency and decides to screw everything up. But it's very powerful and increasingly misaligned with the interest of humans. Being driven by demand does not map well to the shared wishes and morals of humanity, only if because o…

See also Meditations on Moloch for a more poetic desription: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re: The End of the Internet Dream

#70

Post by mbrock »

beatpanda wrote: post #34

You know, one way out of building an internet none of us actually wants just because the people with the money tell us to is to organize as a union. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of leverage software engineers already have, as evidenced by the wages and benefits that are standard in this industry, that we nevertheless refuse to use to try to exert some control over what we are building.

Wouldn't "we" be more likely to unionize if our wages were bad?

And are unions good at this stuff? Here in Sweden, they seem to be mostly aligned with the industrial profit motive. For example, the big metal workers' union supported extending our large arms export deal with Saudi Arabia, since it employs thousands of people.

Post reply on HN