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The West Is Choked by Fear

spiegel.de

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Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#61

Post by CWuestefeld »

theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

After reading the first line of your post, I was prepared to up-vote you since you were already negative, just on the principle of guaranteeing your free speech.

However, the rest of your post was just poorly thought out, and deserves the downvotes you got, regardless of what side of the issue you're on.

If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filthy whore, guess how much sympathy I would get in court.

You'll get a lot of sympathy. The courts (in America, anyway) do observe a doctrine of "fighting words", which incite irrational emotions in a person such that they lose control. This is analogous to what would happen were the defendent were unable to control himself due to some mental defect.

The question at hand has nothing to do with fighting words. Since the threats are greatly separated in space and time, no excuse about a temporary loss of rationality can be used. The treats against the artist were fully premeditated.

Legalities aside, defending the artist is the morally correct choice. The only way that we can grow as people and as a society -- and this pertains to both technology and to philosophy -- is by questioning our beliefs and our assumptions. Even when we are correct, we need and we deserve to prove it to ourselves. When we are offended, we can examine the injured belief, and the result should be either that we learn that we are wrong, or we verify to ourselves that our belief is true. Either way, we're better off. Do those offended by these cartoons have such weak faith that their faith will be damaged by them?

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#62

Post by jimbokun »

Rod wrote: post #58
jimbokun wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise." This much better explains why the U.S. better assimilates immigrants (Muslim or otherwise) than Europe, than anything I said. We have our immigration issues, but I have never heard anyone refer to a legal U.S. citizen as a "guest." It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured…

"It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured to give up their own heritage, culture, and beliefs or be ostracized." Oh, come on. Do you think that Muslims moving to the U.S. don't have to give up anything? All immigrants have to be give up something, but they don't have to give up all: their own heritage, culture, and beliefs. That sounds melodramatic. It'…

Or everyone can agree to live and let live.

I really do think there is a qualitative difference between the U.S. and Europe in this regard. Europe seems to be lurching from banning some forms of Muslim identity outright (veils and head scarves) to banning anyone from saying anything bad about Islam. In the U.S., we insist that Muslims abide by the same laws as everyone else, and that's pretty much it. They don't have to dress like us or adopt the same social mores. We are also used to people with strong religious beliefs freely expressing their opinions, because we still have a lot of practicing Christians, unlike Europe. So strongly held religious beliefs don't seem so intimidating to us.

Yes, I know this is all a generalization, but from the anecdotes I read in the press, your comments, and anecdotes from some Europeans living in the U.S. I've talked to, I think there is some truth to it.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#63

Post by theotherside »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #61
theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

After reading the first line of your post, I was prepared to up-vote you since you were already negative, just on the principle of guaranteeing your free speech. However, the rest of your post was just poorly thought out, and deserves the downvotes you got, regardless of what side of the issue you're on. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filthy whore, guess how…

Your criticism misses the mark, as I don't actually defend the violent reaction to the cartoons and have said as much.

Also, this was never about questioning, as much as about the intention. You may or may not be aware that the newspaper solicited the cartoons, challenging the artists to make them as inflammatory as possible. It was a political and commercial stunt under the guise of a moral battle, making the whole thing even more despicable.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#64

Post by CWuestefeld »

theotherside wrote: post #63
CWuestefeld wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After reading the first line of your post, I was prepared to up-vote you since you were already negative, just on the principle of guaranteeing your free speech. However, the rest of your post was just poorly thought out, and deserves the downvotes you got, regardless of what side of the issue you're on. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filthy whore, guess how…

Your criticism misses the mark, as I don't actually defend the violent reaction to the cartoons and have said as much. Also, this was never about questioning , as much as about the intention. You may or may not be aware that the newspaper solicited the cartoons, challenging the artists to make them as inflammatory as possible. It was a political and commercial stunt under the guise of a moral battle, making the whole…

Also, this was never about questioning, as much as about the intention.

You seem to be under the impression that it's possible to discern someone's intent, e.g., "prodding them for a cheap thrill", "it was a political and commercial stunt". Do you really contend that you have the vision into people's hearts, that you can discern their actual motivations?

No, in reality you do not have, and cannot have, any inkling of the real reasons for any of a person's actions.

But in any case, the freedom of expression, to challenge beliefs and assumptions, is in no way predicated on intent. Freedom is not reserved to those who are pure of heart. If it were only granted on the basis of someone approving its motivations, then an oppressor would only need to be dishonest, or mistaken, in judging those motivations.

Freedom of expression is for everyone, and for all purposes.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#65

Post by Rod »

jimbokun wrote: post #62
Rod wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured to give up their own heritage, culture, and beliefs or be ostracized." Oh, come on. Do you think that Muslims moving to the U.S. don't have to give up anything? All immigrants have to be give up something, but they don't have to give up all: their own heritage, culture, and beliefs. That sounds melodramatic. It'…

Or everyone can agree to live and let live. I really do think there is a qualitative difference between the U.S. and Europe in this regard. Europe seems to be lurching from banning some forms of Muslim identity outright (veils and head scarves) to banning anyone from saying anything bad about Islam. In the U.S., we insist that Muslims abide by the same laws as everyone else, and that's pretty much it. They don't have…

I think your observations are correct. There are some differences between the U.S. and Europe that may explain it:

i) the U.S. is protected by two vast oceans, and Canada and Mexico were never a threat. By contrast, Europe has been under siege by Islam various times, starting with the conquest of the Iberian peninsula in the 8th century, to fighting the Otomans in the East for various centuries. Mass immigration feels more like an invasion in this case.

ii) the U.S. is much more multicultural and multi-ethnic than each specific European country. There's enormous variety as a whole in Europe, but each country tends to have its own identity. Sweden, for instance, is one of the least genetically diverse countries in the world.

iii) in Europe, Church and State tend to be more separated. Some years ago, Germany's federal government wanted to ban Christian crosses from Bavarian public schools, as it violated the law, and there was huge outcry. Now they do the same to Islamic veils, and people say it's Islamophobia. The truth is: the law applies to all, and Muslims, if they are citizens, must abide and do not deserve special treatment.

In the end, there's also the arrogance and pride. Europe did rule the world for centuries. Now the U.S. is in charge, but we still feel like we know better. We certainly are not going to adopt the cultures of Muslim immigrants who come to Europe because their countries are failed states. We know better than all, so whoever comes to Europe either plays by our rules or can go somewhere else. It's a bit strict, but it's fair. It applies to all, regardless of religion and ethnicity.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#66

Post by jimbokun »

Rod wrote: post #65
jimbokun wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or everyone can agree to live and let live. I really do think there is a qualitative difference between the U.S. and Europe in this regard. Europe seems to be lurching from banning some forms of Muslim identity outright (veils and head scarves) to banning anyone from saying anything bad about Islam. In the U.S., we insist that Muslims abide by the same laws as everyone else, and that's pretty much it. They don't have…

I think your observations are correct. There are some differences between the U.S. and Europe that may explain it: i) the U.S. is protected by two vast oceans, and Canada and Mexico were never a threat. By contrast, Europe has been under siege by Islam various times, starting with the conquest of the Iberian peninsula in the 8th century, to fighting the Otomans in the East for various centuries. Mass immigration feel…

Yeah, I think at this point we have reached a consensus. :)

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#67

Post by toothcomb »

aerique wrote: post #30
akamaka wrote: post #16

I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…

Trolling is a good detector for the maturity of your victims. Sensible people ignore it or are amused. Others respond seriously or go mental. Trick question: am I a troll or not?

Is a troll another name for devil's advocate? That's the way I see it. You don't know sometimes if the person or the presenting attitude is that of troll or not.

Is to troll to be deliberately malicious? Does this really help the debate? Digg and Youtube have just become a forum for immature witticisms and derogatory put downs - trolls.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#68

Post by lucifer »

rbanffy wrote: post #50
lucifer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My intent was not to offend you or other readers. Further I do not find the notion of mass extermination of humans acceptable. However the comment I replied to posited the (imo false) notion that only religious beliefs are uniquely putting forward "absolute truths" and that the adherents of these beliefs are unique in resisting fact based analysis of their beliefs. I am not aware of rigorous studies that address the…

"How long does it take to reduce a human body to ashes? How much fuel does it take to do this?" Humans have a lot of fat. I suppose it is possible to sustain combustion using human fat as fuel alone. The time it takes depend on temperature, amount of fuel and availability of oxygen. "What chemicals were used to kill" AFAIK, Carbon Monoxide was the preferred means. It poses no great risk to the operators if properly r…

Not CO2: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=...

2-3 hours to cremate: http://ohiocrematory.com/process.html

"There were many mass graves identified" The issue is the numbers involved. 6,000,000 to be exact. http://www.gmsplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/normandy-...

"Can anyone seriously believe the surviving witnesses are victims of a collective hallucination or part of a conspiracy to hide some "truth"?"

Why even go there? Simply investigate the "scientific" basis for accepting the given narrative.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=...

"It saddens me my species is capable of such a cold, directed, rational and efficient genocide. The possibility it may happen again frightens me deeply."

We're in agreement, here. And we frankly don't even need to reach that far back in history for evidence of the vile in our species. One look at what was done to Gaza and Iraq suffices.

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