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Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

unionsquareventures.com

61–70 of 77 posts

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#61

The fundamental problem with patents is that it rewards the first person to file a patent, disregarding the possibility that two people can synchronously, or asynchronously come to the same idea independently of each other. I guess the "American" (assuming you're in America) course of action is to speak to your senator to push for reform and help evolve our government. If that fails, ditch the government altogether a…

U.S. patents go to the first inventor, regardless of filing order.

Yeah but you have to prove it.

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#62
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They discovered a horrible, systemic vulnerability and then patented most of the effective defenses for it. It's pure evil genius.

And that's why patents are broken.

Strong disagree. They found the vulnerability. It is a remarkably interesting attack. Without their work, we'd just be silently vulnerable to the problem. I think (for instance) the DPA patents are a decent example of good-faith patents.

RSA was patent-encumbered for a long time too. You can formulate a similar argument about that. "RSA makes systems safer [ed: no it doesn't, but continuing...], so it's wrong to allow it to be patented".

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#63
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conventional wisdom says that pharma qualifies. Labs wouldn't spend the resources if anyone could come up with generic drugs once the hard work of finding out which drug works is done.

i don't know if this is true, but i heard somewhere that drug companies don't really innovate anything. it's the NIH and universities (via government funding) that actually discover the drugs, then they sell the exclusive rights to manufacture it to big pharma (who then spends a lot to get it approved and market it and such...) (this is the book, i haven't read it) http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Drug-Companies-Dec…

As an interesting side note; apparently pharma companies spend significantly more on marketing than they do on research and development.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.ht...

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#64
post #32
post #13

I'm a little cautious about this post. He is exaggerating by stretching the definition of "patent troll", if I am reading correctly. A true patent troll is a company that produces nothing except lawsuits. With a company that produces something and also sues over patents, there is at least the possibility of a countersuit / crosslicense / armed truce. I assume their portfolio companies pool their patents together for…

"With a company that produces something and also sues over patents, there is at least the possibility of a countersuit / crosslicense / armed truce." Unless you're a startup that just wants to make a good product and isn't interested in spending tens of thousands of dollars acquiring patents on software you think shouldn't even be patented in the first place. Then you have no defense. You also don't have the funds fo…

I'm not arguing anything about the validity or wisdom of patents. I'm saying the poster (a VC) left out a lot of pertinent information and using the term "patent troll" incorrectly.

It's an interesting item but wrapped in self-serving omission and linkbaity style.

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#65
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because a license might cost $1m, but going to court to fight it might cost $100m or more. It's a no-brainer whatever size you look at it. The win-lose equation here is about risk management: it's too risky for Microsoft, with an 'endless budget', to go against a troll. In this instance, Microsoft's attorneys risk alienation too by playing the chicken game, and they don't want to do that. How it could work is to find…

How it could work is to find a judge who thinks patent cases like this are ambulance chasers, and then ensure that all the suits against you are relocated into her court. If you have a friendly judge then it becomes much easier to play chicken. How exactly do you do this? I've been wondering. It seems trolls are able to get these cases heard in disproportionate numbers by a strange little puppet court down in east te…

As a patent holder you are allowed to sue in any jurisdiction where your invention is made, sold, or used. So the trolls naturally pick a friendly court.

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#66
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new Google phone's lack of software support for multi-touch is something which has come up recently.

people often cite patents as the reason for this (lack of multi-touch) but I don't think it's the real reason. For starters almost everyone else is using multi-touch, and from what I understand (I haven't any dev experience with Android) multi-touch support is built into the OS, just that the default apps don't use it

This is true. Dolphin Broswer on the Android opperating system supports multi-touch. Gives you the pinch zoom so covetted on the iPhone. It is just going to take time for the applications to catch up to where Android 2.0 is.

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's why patents are broken.

Strong disagree. They found the vulnerability. It is a remarkably interesting attack. Without their work, we'd just be silently vulnerable to the problem. I think (for instance) the DPA patents are a decent example of good-faith patents. RSA was patent-encumbered for a long time too. You can formulate a similar argument about that. "RSA makes systems safer [ed: no it doesn't, but continuing...], so it's wrong to allo…

I think there are some steps missing in your argument. It seems to go something like this: (1) CR found the issue, spotted a business model, patented all the best solutions, and told the world. (2) Without patents, CR wouldn't have done this. (3) So without patents, no one would have done it. (4) So without patents, we'd all be silently vulnerable to a very general, very clever side-channel attack.

The step from (1) to (2) seems doubtful. If the CR people hadn't been able to patent a bunch of ways to deal with DPAs, they might none the less have published about them. It's not as if no one ever tells the world about a security vulnerability without a patent-based incentive.

The step from (2) to (3) seems doubtful. It seems more likely that without CR, sooner or later someone else would have thought of differential power attacks and published about them. Unless CR are just much much smarter than everyone else -- in which case, the guys in black hats would have been just as much worse off as the guys in white hats.

The step from (3) to (4) is OK, with the proviso I just mentioned: it seems that the obvious way for (3) to be true would tend to make the vulnerability matter much less.

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#68
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conventional wisdom says that pharma qualifies. Labs wouldn't spend the resources if anyone could come up with generic drugs once the hard work of finding out which drug works is done.

i don't know if this is true, but i heard somewhere that drug companies don't really innovate anything. it's the NIH and universities (via government funding) that actually discover the drugs, then they sell the exclusive rights to manufacture it to big pharma (who then spends a lot to get it approved and market it and such...) (this is the book, i haven't read it) http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Drug-Companies-Dec…

Actually it will be unwise to generalize for all pharma companies but yes it is a standard practice to license rights from labs/univ

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#69

The fundamental problem with patents is that it rewards the first person to file a patent, disregarding the possibility that two people can synchronously, or asynchronously come to the same idea independently of each other. I guess the "American" (assuming you're in America) course of action is to speak to your senator to push for reform and help evolve our government. If that fails, ditch the government altogether a…

U.S. patents go to the first inventor, regardless of filing order.

In any case first doesn't mean the only, or the only one deserving.

Re: Almost a third of our portfolio is under attack by patent trolls.

#70
post #67
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong disagree. They found the vulnerability. It is a remarkably interesting attack. Without their work, we'd just be silently vulnerable to the problem. I think (for instance) the DPA patents are a decent example of good-faith patents. RSA was patent-encumbered for a long time too. You can formulate a similar argument about that. "RSA makes systems safer [ed: no it doesn't, but continuing...], so it's wrong to allo…

I think there are some steps missing in your argument. It seems to go something like this: (1) CR found the issue, spotted a business model, patented all the best solutions, and told the world. (2) Without patents, CR wouldn't have done this. (3) So without patents, no one would have done it. (4) So without patents, we'd all be silently vulnerable to a very general, very clever side-channel attack. The step from (1)…

Regarding (2) to (3): sorry, I think it is --- in large part --- the fact that CRI is just much much smarter. They're a peculiar company: they do real-world implementation and high quality research. Yes, there are Dan Bernsteins and Dan Bleichenbachers in the world, but for the most part those people don't get a lot of exposure to custom hardware.

Regarding (1) to (2): sure, maybe CRI would have published even without compensation. Just like maybe I'd do my job part-time for free anyways even if I wasn't getting paid. You can say that for anyone who's doing what they love: musicians, lawyers, architects. But what's the win for not compensating CRI? Huge consumer electronics companies have to pay slightly less NRE to build new products. I'd rather have CRI in the world.

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