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Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

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Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#61
In addition to the in-school teach to the test problem the focus on SAT and ACT tests for college admissions is also a really big problem. For the kids lucky enough to consider college, the fact remains that parents can throw money at SAT test preparation and get test score improvements in the 100 point range and more. I know because I have done this.

When I took the SAT in 1970 no one got assistance via test preparation. Now it is, or so it seems mandatory to top the charts with test scores.

Colleges look to raise their selectiveness rating by admitting higher and higher SAT (and ACT) test scores. The net affect is that for those that don't know or can't afford test preparation classes, they have lower scores than they might otherwise and the assumption is they have less choice in college admission.

I work at a University that plays the selective SAT game but also is starting to talk about if there are other ways of serving those that can succeed in college but might not get the scores that we strive for in our admits.

I think after 9 years of working in higher education and being a parent of a college grad and high school senior I think it is fair to say that both K12 public schools and institutions of higher education need some radical reinvention. I just hope I live long enough to see it come to happen.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#62
I have never understood why we keep most kids grouped by age throughout their education.

In my opinion, standardized testing is most useful in a situation where a very limited number of tests are given as 'mile markers' in an educational path. A re-calibration of the scale.

No two students learn at the same pace, why force it?

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to ask, "is this stuff that a graduate of the system should be able to do?" Uhm, I don't feel like I do? Or at least insofar as I do, that set feels like it should be really small, because: Which graduate? There are many things that we'd like a graduate to do, but we don't need for every graduate to be able to do. I would quite like my CS grads to understand big O notation - I would not attempt to teach it…

Here are some real standardized tests. Which students don't need to be able to answer "Roberto paid $43.08 for 3 CDs. All 3 CDs were the same price. How much did each CD cost?" Which students don't need to be able to compute 3 x (3/4)? http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqmath7.pdf http://www.nysedregents.org/Grade8/Mathematics/20100505book1... http://www.nysedregents.org/Grade8/EnglishLanguageArts/04261...…

> Since you seem to think the test covers too many topics, perhaps you can read it tell us concretely which ones should be removed?

I think you've somewhat missed the point, though I'm happy enough to play that game.

My question would be which adults need to know those things? You ask me, "Which students don't need to be able to compute 3 x (3/4)?" And I would be inclined to answer anyone who doesn't want to go into some field that uses a lot of mathematics; accountancy, physics, computer science, biology, et cetera et cetera. Outside of the education system, for a lot of people, that knowledge has no value. And it's the same with the questions upon angles, the questions about area... people who aren't going to be working in particularly quantitative professions do not need to know these things.

Your secretary does not need to know (taken from the sheets you posted) what an angle given by a line bisecting two parallel lines is. They don't need to know what 833,000 is written in scientific notation. They don't need to know what 2 over 3 to the power of four is, or which of the following: the square root of 144, the square root of 16, the square root of four, the square root of three - is an irrational number. They don't need to know what a 20% discount on a price of $37.50 is, it will be marked on what they want to buy. They do not need to know what has the same value as 5 to the power of 6 multiplied by 5 to the power of -2. Or what (jk)^-5(jk)^3 is. They do not need to know what the value of 4 to the square root of X is when X is 100. Or which graph shows that Y is equal to minus X squared.

These things all have a use, but they don't have a use to everyone. They don't have a use to nearly everyone. Most people do not work in a profession where that sort of maths is useful.

Your taxidriver does not need to be able to understand algebra, your secretary does not need to be able to understand geometry, your customer service representative does not need to be able to do calculus. And it is a waste of time, effort, money, and passion to try to teach them to do so if they are not interested.

I would suggest, in the place of general standardised tests, a system more similar to the badges given out for scouting: pass fail assessment of a particular skill, voluntary participation, fine-grained certification. You have kids in a school, and if they want to go for their level 1 geometry badge, or whatever, then you help them do so. You retain the absolute basics that everyone has to have in order to get by in society, like addition, multiplication, division. And everything else you take out into a much finer-grained system that vouches for specific skills.

That would allow both a better analysis of the sort of skills that are being promoted in particular areas by particular schools and it will allow children to pursue their aspirations rather than being shoehorned into a process that is not suitable for everybody and manages to say very little with respect to specific careers. People shouldn't end up shit-listed for life because they ended up studying a bunch of stuff they had no interest or passion for but which unfortunately, because of the way the system was set up, is the only way that their employer had to assess anything about their education.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#65
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, I've seen richer parents simply send their children who didn't not meet private school's admissions and performance requirements to state school (the one I attended!) whilst their siblings passed the requirements and remained at the private school. I remember two kids from primary school seemed to have disappeared and then reappeared a few months down the line from school year start. They didn't make the c…

That's somewhat disheartening: it suggests that it isn't a problem that can be solved by throwing more money at it.

Not exactly, you've not demonstrated that the private schools have any incentive to even try. They can cream off the healthy, docile and rich and make money from that, so why should they accept any more challenge than that? After all, once you've done the initial skim, you don't actually need to be good educationalists, the filter has done all the work for you, and every kid you reject makes your competition look worse.

Plus the research shows private schools don't actually help you educationally, so they (like charter schools) must actually be worse at their jobs once you factor in the head start that selection gives them.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some real standardized tests. Which students don't need to be able to answer "Roberto paid $43.08 for 3 CDs. All 3 CDs were the same price. How much did each CD cost?" Which students don't need to be able to compute 3 x (3/4)? http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/cstrtqmath7.pdf http://www.nysedregents.org/Grade8/Mathematics/20100505book1... http://www.nysedregents.org/Grade8/EnglishLanguageArts/04261...…

> Since you seem to think the test covers too many topics, perhaps you can read it tell us concretely which ones should be removed? I think you've somewhat missed the point, though I'm happy enough to play that game. My question would be which adults need to know those things? You ask me, "Which students don't need to be able to compute 3 x (3/4)?" And I would be inclined to answer anyone who doesn't want to go into…

For the people who don't need to realize that a 20% discount on $37.50 is $30, why bother sending them to school past 6th grade at all?

Now that I see your argument more fully, it seems less like an argument against testing and more like an argument against wasting resources on unneeded education. Do you believe the people who don't need the specific topics you mention actually do need education beyond grade 6? If so, why?

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#67

I worked for a year as a tutor in an elementary school. Even the first graders are doing six or seven standardized tests every year, plus random additional tests (including those given by me and my fellow reading tutors, testing every student in the school three times yearly to see if they qualified to be tutored). The kids would even get their scores back too, so would be distraught when they didn't match up to othe…

" Even the first graders are doing six or seven standardized tests every year, plus random additional tests" Name them. They're standardized, so this shouldn't be a problem for you.

DIBELS, MAPS, Common Core, etc. Some of these happen multiple times a year.

I honestly can't remember all of the names, but I can assure you there were more. I was a tutor -- I never administered any of these tests -- and it was three years ago. Just Google "first grade standardized tests" and you'll find some more, though I can't remember which of those in particular the kids at my school took. Each state has its own standardized tests too...

To be honest, I enjoyed taking standardized tests when I was a student, but it became clear to me that for most kids (most of whom didn't have the stress-free, charmed existence that I had growing up) it's just demoralizing and useless.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#68
post #26
post #8

No shit. Public school is all about teaching to the tests. There's no time to actually learn anything useful , because everything is focused on bringing up the state test scores, which influence funding. Not only are you spending all this time teaching what is going to be on the standardized test, and how to structure essays and do your work according to what the test graders expect, but there's the two weeks taken o…

Whether that's good or bad depends entirely on the content of the tests. You have to ask, "is this stuff that a graduate of the system should be able to do?" If no, then it's fair to criticize them for having to spend time teaching this, and instead achieve a lower proficiency but teach a broader skill set. But if yes, then any criticism of "teaching for the test" falls flat: this is stuff students need to be able to…

"Teaching to the test" generally doesn't mean covering the material that the test is intended to cover in theory, it means drilling the exact format of questions, studying previous years, knowing exactly what you can sacrifice coverage of, how to guess multiple choice questions when you don't know the answer etc. Basically over-optimizing to fit an imperfect model.

Now, I'm a good test taker generally, and it has always helped me in life, and I will ensure my children know the rules of the game. But from the perspective of the country or planet, that's not time and effort well spent, it's a zero-sum arms-race that could have been better spent.

There's more to this, e.g. the fact that the tests are really testing the teachers (again very imperfectly), that some people want to privatize education and so on, but "teaching to the test" is a well known anti-pattern for good reasons, even though the individual incentives push us in that direction.

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Even the first graders are doing six or seven standardized tests every year, plus random additional tests" Name them. They're standardized, so this shouldn't be a problem for you.

DIBELS, MAPS, Common Core, etc. Some of these happen multiple times a year. I honestly can't remember all of the names, but I can assure you there were more. I was a tutor -- I never administered any of these tests -- and it was three years ago. Just Google "first grade standardized tests" and you'll find some more, though I can't remember which of those in particular the kids at my school took. Each state has its ow…

Googled "first grade standardized tests" and not seeing anywhere near 6 or 7 plus more.

Sure you can't remember them all?

Re: Study says standardized testing is overwhelming nation’s public schools

#70
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether that's good or bad depends entirely on the content of the tests. You have to ask, "is this stuff that a graduate of the system should be able to do?" If no, then it's fair to criticize them for having to spend time teaching this, and instead achieve a lower proficiency but teach a broader skill set. But if yes, then any criticism of "teaching for the test" falls flat: this is stuff students need to be able to…

"Teaching to the test" generally doesn't mean covering the material that the test is intended to cover in theory, it means drilling the exact format of questions, studying previous years, knowing exactly what you can sacrifice coverage of, how to guess multiple choice questions when you don't know the answer etc. Basically over-optimizing to fit an imperfect model. Now, I'm a good test taker generally, and it has alw…

>"Teaching to the test" generally doesn't mean covering the material that the test is intended to cover in theory, it means drilling the exact format of questions...

Sure, if you're an incompetent teacher. But then maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be teaching at all.

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