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Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

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Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#61

Post by TheCoelacanth »

ebbv wrote: post #34
stretchwithme wrote: post #9

These unintended acceleration incidents seem to happen mostly to elderly drivers. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real...

And more importantly than that there are a couple of underlying facts that invalidate the whole premise that unintended acceleration means automatic accidents/death: 1) None of these cars are 700hp Supras that accelerate at drastic speeds. These were normal consumer cars that frankly aren't that fast even with the throttle fully depressed. 2) The brakes in all of these vehicles are many times more powerful than the e…

It seems to me that even if it is possible for the driver to prevent the accident by reacting quickly and braking, Toyota is still responsible. Unintended acceleration is not a reasonable behavior for a vehicle and is not something that a driver can reasonably be expected to compensate for.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#62

Post by bradfa »

achr2 wrote: post #57

Isn't it time for an oversight agency that looks at code quality within safety-critical systems? The FDA forces oversight of drugs that less than 100,000 people a year will take. Yet there is no agency looking into the software quality of a car management system that millions of people will drive with every day.

This will add a tremendous amount of cost to product development. This might be worthwhile if simple consumer or industry pressure doesn't work.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#63

Post by bradfa »

ebbv wrote: post #34
stretchwithme wrote: post #9

These unintended acceleration incidents seem to happen mostly to elderly drivers. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real...

And more importantly than that there are a couple of underlying facts that invalidate the whole premise that unintended acceleration means automatic accidents/death: 1) None of these cars are 700hp Supras that accelerate at drastic speeds. These were normal consumer cars that frankly aren't that fast even with the throttle fully depressed. 2) The brakes in all of these vehicles are many times more powerful than the e…

As I understand it, the brakes in modern gasoline powered cars often need vacuum and when the throttle is wide open (high acceleration) the engine will generate very little if any vacuum, so the assist which normally provides high braking power is not present and this can drastically reduce the braking ability of the car.

Some cars have a sensor to detect if you are overlapping the throttle and brakes and will cut the throttle if the brake pedal is detected as being pressed. This can frustrate people who attempt to match revs on downshifts in manual transmission cars.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#64

Post by kllrnohj »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #47
ebbv wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And more importantly than that there are a couple of underlying facts that invalidate the whole premise that unintended acceleration means automatic accidents/death: 1) None of these cars are 700hp Supras that accelerate at drastic speeds. These were normal consumer cars that frankly aren't that fast even with the throttle fully depressed. 2) The brakes in all of these vehicles are many times more powerful than the e…

Your two point list is silly. Consumer cars & SUVs can go 0-60 in under 10 seconds in almost all cases, and the fact that the brake can overcome that acceleration is great, except it takes time, and within the time between unexpected acceleration and stopping damage/injuries/death can occur. I had a water bottle fall onto my right leg while turning, this caused a sudden but short lived acceleration (e.g. 10 MpH of un…

> Consumer cars & SUVs can go 0-60 in under 10 seconds in almost all cases, and the fact that the brake can overcome that acceleration is great, except it takes time

The actual data paints a different picture: http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/braking-result...

That said people don't do well with surprises so while the car mechanically would have no trouble at all stopping very nearly as fast due to a wide open throttle, the driver is probably freaking out instead of just slamming on the brakes.

Also people suck at actually slamming on the brakes, regardless of the situation. It's not something people want to ever do. They'll hit the brakes, they just won't go anywhere close to really pushing that pedal to the floor.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#65

Post by arbitrage »

bradfa wrote: post #62
achr2 wrote: post #57

Isn't it time for an oversight agency that looks at code quality within safety-critical systems? The FDA forces oversight of drugs that less than 100,000 people a year will take. Yet there is no agency looking into the software quality of a car management system that millions of people will drive with every day.

This will add a tremendous amount of cost to product development. This might be worthwhile if simple consumer or industry pressure doesn't work.

> This will add a tremendous amount of cost to product development.

Not that many people are getting killed, so it's an acceptable tradeoff?

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#66

Post by mikeash »

reitanqild wrote: post #12
stretchwithme wrote: post #9

These unintended acceleration incidents seem to happen mostly to elderly drivers. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real...

Is there any reason why this pattern hasn't been widely reported? Edit: I mean, -if it was this obvious we should have known it by now?

Because "you experienced unintended acceleration because you panicked and wouldn't release the accelerator" and "you should have just mashed the brakes until the car stopped" and "shift into neutral, silly" don't make for interesting stories and all have the smell of victim-blaming, even if completely true.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#67

Post by drdeca »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #47
ebbv wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And more importantly than that there are a couple of underlying facts that invalidate the whole premise that unintended acceleration means automatic accidents/death: 1) None of these cars are 700hp Supras that accelerate at drastic speeds. These were normal consumer cars that frankly aren't that fast even with the throttle fully depressed. 2) The brakes in all of these vehicles are many times more powerful than the e…

Your two point list is silly. Consumer cars & SUVs can go 0-60 in under 10 seconds in almost all cases, and the fact that the brake can overcome that acceleration is great, except it takes time, and within the time between unexpected acceleration and stopping damage/injuries/death can occur. I had a water bottle fall onto my right leg while turning, this caused a sudden but short lived acceleration (e.g. 10 MpH of un…

Do you mean that over 1 second, the speed increased by 10 mph ?

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#68

Post by Splines »

A big takeaway that I got out of this is that nearly everybody forgot about this.

People are still buying and driving Toyotas.

When the VW emissions thing started making its way through the news cycle, I read comments postulating that this might be the end of VW. Hah - people are going to forget about VW just like they forget about everything else.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#69

Post by celticninja »

achr2 wrote: post #57

Isn't it time for an oversight agency that looks at code quality within safety-critical systems? The FDA forces oversight of drugs that less than 100,000 people a year will take. Yet there is no agency looking into the software quality of a car management system that millions of people will drive with every day.

That forces the cost onto the state and the state is also inefficient generally so it would take longer than an I ternary review. Then when a bug causes an issue it is the fault of the state for allowing it through and not the company for coding it. In addition private sector usually pays more so the state sector does not get the pick of the coders.

Re: Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

#70

Post by mikeash »

alistairSH wrote: post #49
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your two point list is silly. Consumer cars & SUVs can go 0-60 in under 10 seconds in almost all cases, and the fact that the brake can overcome that acceleration is great, except it takes time, and within the time between unexpected acceleration and stopping damage/injuries/death can occur. I had a water bottle fall onto my right leg while turning, this caused a sudden but short lived acceleration (e.g. 10 MpH of un…

Agreed. Modern cars, even the modest ones, are fast enough that they can get out of control very quickly. While the brakes certainly can slow a vehicle with its throttle stuck open, the real question is what impact does that stuck throttle have on the average driver? When the brake doesn't work as expected, does the average driver continue to brake? Do they pump the brake pedal? Something else altogether? How long do…

It's likely that drivers won't immediately react well to unintended acceleration. However, immediate reactions are unlikely to cause major accidents here. Yeah, you might bump someone or mount a curb or something, but it's likely to be an injury-free accident.

Toyota's unintended acceleration is notorious because of incidents where the car accelerated up to extremely high speeds, was driven down the highway in this state for an extended time, then finally crashed. At least one involved a panicked 911 call from the driver. This is a scenario drivers should be able to bring to a safe conclusion, because they have time to work things out.

Some drivers will panic in such a scenario and be unable to work on the problem. Those people should not be driving. That they are speaks to the woefully inadequate state of driver training in this country.

None of this absolves Toyota of blame, though. If an equipment malfunction due to a design defect results in death even if the human should have recovered, that's still the fault of the manufacturer, as well as the driver.

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