Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

blogs.wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 72 posts

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#61

Post by mjn »

itsybitsycoder wrote: post #44
toomuchtodo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is infuriating. My mother is 58. Her lower spinal column was collapsed, and she's had it reconstructed using titanium plates and screws during a 6 hour surgery. She has been denied for disability by the Social Security Administration twice, and currently has to wait ~500 days for her next appeal ( https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html ) in front of an panel of judges (this backlog is caused…

He doesn't know whether his neighbor needs disability or not, he's just guessing. MS symptoms are really variable. The fact that he has a few good days doesn't mean he can hold down a steady job.

That's been our experience with my uncle who has MS.

It started as periodic attacks in his late 30s, where for anywhere from a day at a time, to about a week at a time, he'd have significant difficulty getting out of bed and moving around (and definitely couldn't drive). But then he could go for weeks at a time being totally fine; usually about 4-6 weeks, and in one case a full 6 months. This already started making it hard to keep employment, though, since employers tend not to like random unscheduled absences that are likely to continue indefinitely into the future (even if they understand the reason). Fortunately, he was a lawyer, which is an area where at the time it was relatively easy to find flexible part-time work. That worked ok for a number of years. Once the attacks got more frequent though, even this no longer worked out. Also he was no longer able to maintain a driver's license. So by his mid-40s he went on disability, even though he was still ok probably 50% of the time. He would definitely have preferred to keep working in some capacity if it were possible, because it gave him something to do, and even his previous part-time job paid more than the $700/mo disability gave. By his late 40s he definitely couldn't work in any capacity (started having mental issues in addition to physical ones, and full-time physical ones), but there's a few years there where it seemed unfortunate that we don't have a way to better accommodate people who are somewhat but not really fully able to work.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#62

Post by Mz »

discardorama wrote: post #22

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

I am medically handicapped. I do not qualify for disability for basically bureaucratic reasons. But I do have some income without working and I do freelance work and had food stamps for a time.

Being able to quit my corporate job has allowed me to get healthier and a lot of people would be surprised to find I am handicapped. I mostly walk everywhere and can walk for hours at a time. I also have days when I fall down because I am extremely neurologically impaired, when I have blinding pain accompanied by profuse vomiting and so on.

Being able to quit working can make a handicapped person genuinely more functional. But that doesn't mean they are employable and it doesn't mean the performance you see and judge as evidence of being "able bodied" really adds up to employability.

In other words, he can lift 100 lb stones because he does it when he damn well feels like it, on a good day, at a time of his choosing, under circumstances of his arranging -- none of which applies to typical working conditions.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#63

Post by Retric »

nickff wrote: post #57
omarchowdhury wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grandparent (no pun intended) said he was forced into early retirement though. Shouldn't he be more valuable as he grows older?

It seems that the salary schedule is out of line with the actual value of the employee's labor (assuming that there is no widespread irrational behaviour in the industry). This could be related to a skills development plateau, decreased attitude/attention/enthusiasm, or possibly even risk-aversion in older employees.

A lot of aerospace involves government contracting which has all sorts of accounting games. Companies generally don't want highly skilled workers they want cheap workers they can bill as highly skilled. Remember cost overruns are only a bad thing if you don't get paid.

Also, the industry has a lot's of ups and down and far more recent grads than available positions.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#64

Post by cryoshon »

Mz wrote: post #56
TallGuyShort wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the whole point of the article was that we need to know more about that percentage of the population that "doesn't look, but still wants a job", because dismissive explanations are insufficient. Does anyone on HN have suggestions of possible explanations for some of that percentage? I don't understand it. Is it people who wanted a job, but gave up looking? Other situations that would fall into this category o…

Sometimes, people would rather see themselves as lazy or free spirits than admit to disability. I was acquainted for a time with a homeless man who seemed able bodied but had a mental health issue. He quit his job and walked away from his worldly possessions to get off the zombifying drugs required to make him employable. I have a different disability but made similar choices, so I am sympathetic. But he was very res…

I am really curious now. If you are comfortable, can you inform us what your handicap is called?

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#65

Post by discardorama »

tsotha wrote: post #60
paulcole wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're taking anecdata from anecdata. "I know one guy who is potentially abusing disability. I have seen him on ones of occasions do something that makes me think he should be working."

While what you're saying is true, there's an amazing jump in the number of disabled people that coincides with the onset of the recession in 2008.

Thank you for pointing that out. That is why I had included that link, because, well, anecdata.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#66

Post by Mz »

cryoshon wrote: post #64
Mz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes, people would rather see themselves as lazy or free spirits than admit to disability. I was acquainted for a time with a homeless man who seemed able bodied but had a mental health issue. He quit his job and walked away from his worldly possessions to get off the zombifying drugs required to make him employable. I have a different disability but made similar choices, so I am sympathetic. But he was very res…

I am really curious now. If you are comfortable, can you inform us what your handicap is called?

My official diagnosis is "atypical cystic fibrosis." Does that matter? It could be ADHD. It could be ASD. There are plenty of things that can significantly interfere with your functioning that can be missed, especially if you are above average intelligence.

Twice exceptional individuals very often have seemingly "average" performance outcomes and the degree to which it tortures them to just achieve "average" goes largely unnoticed by people who presume them to have an excess of ego for thinking they deserve something better in life.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#67

Post by lfowles »

discardorama wrote: post #22

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

Do you suspect you'd be seeing him on bad days? Personally, I'd be making like a recluse.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#68

Post by SovietDissident »

discardorama wrote: post #22

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

The question is: why have disability claims skyrocketed at least since the 90s? Are Americans that much more disabled (than people of the Depression, WWII and Vietnam generations, and beyond)? It strikes me as being highly implausible. Based on some of the data presented here and elsewhere, it seems like it's become another welfare program for many people, with some "deserving" individuals in between. Some people, when not forced to work for their survival, will eschew it. Others see it as free money, and just work for cash on the side.

To the moral question of the safety net: is it just for one to have earned X dollars (and spent Y amount of one's life) working at a job, only to have the fruits of one's labor forcefully taken away to fund his neighbor's welfare/housing/food/schooling/etc.? I would argue no.[0] If someone is disabled or destitute, he can appeal to the charity of his family members, fellow human beings, or philanthropy to help him out. There are plenty of people (many on these boards, I imagine) who have excess resources and would surely help a starving man in the street or an orphan.

Indeed, voluntary aid would fix the issue of worthiness which you raise: if you are worthy of help, you will be judged worthy to receive it. (Charities and mutual aid societies have existed since at least the 19th century, and have proliferated even more-widely since.[1]) If not, time to start providing value to others (i.e., labor) and receiving money in exchange. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

[0] http://philo.abhinav.ac.in/Objectivism/Ayn%20Rand%20-%20The%...

[1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/objectivist/2011/11/18/america-b...

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#69

Post by votingprawn »

Mz wrote: post #66
cryoshon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really curious now. If you are comfortable, can you inform us what your handicap is called?

My official diagnosis is "atypical cystic fibrosis." Does that matter? It could be ADHD. It could be ASD. There are plenty of things that can significantly interfere with your functioning that can be missed, especially if you are above average intelligence. Twice exceptional individuals very often have seemingly "average" performance outcomes and the degree to which it tortures them to just achieve "average" goes lar…

> Does that matter?

No, but when someone alludes to something without saying what it is, curiosity is aroused in people.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#70

Post by michaelZejoop »

6stringmerc wrote: post #54
michaelZejoop wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the nature and quality of the jobs these post 55 people have taken. Do the jobs they land in compare favorably with the jobs they were displaced from? Did they go from professional jobs to service sector jobs? This distinction is important. As a forced-into-early-retirement, former aerospace engineer, I am curious, and I will check your links later. As for my future, I am trying to create my own asset/company…

From the data I've seen, yes, they have gone from professional jobs to service sector jobs - or, at least the data indicates that those are the type of jobs that are being filled during recent memory. It's been a hunch of mine that the displaced older workforce's jobs simply don't exist anymore (layoffs due to technology, better for investors) and the service sector jobs would normally be for the younger population a…

The social implications of this scenario are going to be devastating.

I'm doing my best to prepare for my own future (as one of those laid off early) by learning software development to supplement my systems engineering skill from aerospace. I do not forsee myself becoming a barrista.

Post reply on HN