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Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

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Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#61
post #45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US your employer pays around 15% of your salary as tax. If you're not working for someone else that's an extra 15.3% you have to pay - it's called "self employment tax".

It's not an extra 15%. The total amount of Social Security and Medicare taxes is 15.4%, with the employer paying half and the employee paying the other half. When you're self-employed, you pay both halves. And the employer half is always deductible on your federal income tax, which reduces the sting a little.

Good actual data, though the total figure is 15.3%

NB: it drops to 2.9% (just the employer/employee portion of Medicare) after the cap, which is currently $118,500 for both 2015 and 2016. And then the employee portion of Medicare rises by 0.9% above $200K, but that's not specific to self-employment as it's the employee portion only.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#62
I am Indian and taken back by your comment about Indians/Filipinos. I worked as a freelancer on oDesk; fulltime; around five years ago for more than a year. It was great. I was charging far higher than $15/hr

Probably you should bid for better jobs than scraping websites. I assure you, you be undercutting many Indians/Filipinos by your rate..

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#63
post #17
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$60/hr is not particularly good money in the Bay Area.

Source? What is ideal for Bay Area? Most startups I see have salaries around ~$80k (~$32/hr for 48hr week or ~$40/hr for 40hr week)

You aren't going to get your hourly rate for 40 hours a week if you put in a 40 hour work week.

You need to do marketing to bring in new clients and you probably should be doing this daily. This also includes things like building your web presence and any other promotional things you might do.

You will have time between projects. Most likely you wont have one project line up perfectly with the next through the year.

You don't get paid sick or vacation pay. Between this and downtime between projects, imagine how easy it is to blow through 40, 80, 120 hours of opportunity costs.

You have to pay for all of your own work related expenses.

Occasionally you will have a project blow up or a client won't pay and creates more opportunity costs.

The list goes on.

One way to help all of this is to not bill hourly.

You also need to get a hefty premium for taking on the risk of doing freelance work. Otherwise it's silly to do freelancing over taking a job. All those dreams of being your own boss and choosing your own hours is B.S. All that matters is that you are able to get more earnings than you would if you were working a job. All of the above is stuff that you don't have to deal with in a real job.

Also, you are making life easy for your employer if you are able to deliver high quality work at no risk and headache of doing an actual hire. That's worth a good premium by itself.

But all that is the wrong mind-set. You need to make sure that you are putting yourself not in a position of being a commodity. You need to be delivering on problems that can't necessarily be solved by throwing money at them. And there needs to be real resources behind those problems.

People on Upwork aren't evil because they are looking to hire people for nothing. Upwork is a market. People negotiate. They can get whatever they are looking for. You aren't what they are looking for, yet you still find yourself in the same market. That's fine, just pretend they don't exist. You don't negotiate because you aren't a commodity. You are providing solutions that can't be bought. In other words, everyone needs to do the proper dance steps to pull this off and the lowest bidder won't get the job done. Even the highest bidder may not be able to hit the deadline if the buyer first goes for the lowest and has to scrap the project and start again.

If margins are so low that there is a big difference between a $30 / hr developer and a $40 / hr developer then you need to say no. This is largely arbitrary anyways. Nobody knows how many hours the project really requires and the more expensive programmer may get the project done in half the time. Or that developer may save that much time through maintenance in the long term. Software scales, hours don't, the difference shouldn't come into play. Pay the developer a sufficient professional rate.

Boot-strappers with little money shouldn't be hiring people. They need to roll their sleeves and do some coding themselves. And how much is that time worth? It's probably worth about the same as the hourly freelancer they would be looking to hire (or more) and they are losing that money in opportunity costs. But that's what you need to do when you have more time than money.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#64
post #36

People are going to try their luck in negotiations. That's what they do. "Would $15 be fair to you for this category?" Counter-offer with something that you think reflects the value you're going to provide. Will she take it? Maybe yes, maybe no - you get idiots in every line of work. If she doesn't take it, and you're dealing honestly, it's her loss. At the end of the day though, you did let her open. That's kinda on…

I'm a bit confused on that part though, the offer says $15/hour, why did the author write as if the the offer was $3/hour? Isn't that the pay for manual data entry?

The price that she quoted him was $15. It's not clear that that was $15 an hour, or whether it was $15 for the entire job (regardless of how long it might take.) Considering that the writer questioned whether she thought it would only take him one hour to complete the task, that would be the way that I would be inclined to interpret the way it was taken (if not necessarily the way it was meant): Five hours work at three dollars an hour.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#65
post #35

I've been working as a freelancer for a bit more than a year now and let me offer a counter perspective. This article is a report from the absolute bottom. Part of the problem is the clientele: data scraping jobs are the shadiest, worst-paid jobs you can take on as a programmer. Also, offering the client to pay what they think is fair is a monumentally bad idea. The bigger problem is the perception of value. I regula…

I've been a freelancer for almost 4 years and I have yet to make money via any sort of website. The clientele's expectations are borderline delusional for the price they want to pay.

I get all of my contracts through recommendations from past clients and colleagues and can charge from $60 to $90 per hour (the most I charged was $250 per hour for a job I didn't want to do and didn't expect the client to accept).

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#66
post #7

This is all wrong. Click-bait title. Some thoughts by a discouraged person in a globalised world and a general conclusion that doesn't make any sense if you read the article. Maybe the OP shouldn't look for projects in oDesk-type websites. I don't do that and I'm really happy working as a freelancer. For anyone wondering how to find freelance projects. You should go and look for local clients, networking, contact com…

How do you contact them? Email, cold calling?

Have you tried doing rfps?

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#67
post #35

I've been working as a freelancer for a bit more than a year now and let me offer a counter perspective. This article is a report from the absolute bottom. Part of the problem is the clientele: data scraping jobs are the shadiest, worst-paid jobs you can take on as a programmer. Also, offering the client to pay what they think is fair is a monumentally bad idea. The bigger problem is the perception of value. I regula…

It looks like most of the jobs on HN are full time gigs. Are you pinging them to ask about freelance work?

I was going to ask the same thing. It seems kind of spammy to me.

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#68
post #7

This is all wrong. Click-bait title. Some thoughts by a discouraged person in a globalised world and a general conclusion that doesn't make any sense if you read the article. Maybe the OP shouldn't look for projects in oDesk-type websites. I don't do that and I'm really happy working as a freelancer. For anyone wondering how to find freelance projects. You should go and look for local clients, networking, contact com…

>It's a really, really, really big sea of possibilities nowadays for developers. If you are in the silicon valley or at least in some 1st world country - sure, you have a lot of possibilities and ridiculously high pay. The sad truth is that exactly same skillset can be valued 10x less or 10x more depending on your location.

I think you are not comparing apple-to-apple. Sure, SV pays good money, but the rent is also much higher. In Texas the pay may be lower, so is the rent.

I have a friend who works as full-time freelancer in a small town in Malaysia (Taiping, if you are really curious) and she helps local businesses to do IT projects. For example, she built a custom room management system for a small hotel. She used to work in Motorola Penang, and the freelancer job gives her much more freedom and time, and interestingly, her income is way better than what she got in Mot, even she just serves such a small town with population of around 245K (2010 data)

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#69
post #35

I've been working as a freelancer for a bit more than a year now and let me offer a counter perspective. This article is a report from the absolute bottom. Part of the problem is the clientele: data scraping jobs are the shadiest, worst-paid jobs you can take on as a programmer. Also, offering the client to pay what they think is fair is a monumentally bad idea. The bigger problem is the perception of value. I regula…

>To an average person, programming is not a valuable thing

+1

And any changes you are asked to make are not "easy" nor "quick" nor could they "do it in an hour if I knew how"

I like to give the example that if you were having a house built, when they were putting the final touches to it, painting the walls, screwing lightbulbs etc. It may delay the house being ready, it may cost a bit more if you decide you want to move the house by 1 metre to the left, change the load bearing walls.

Yet they think similar changes to a project should take no time nor cost a thing.

And the best of all "just build something so I can see it then I will know what I want" but I won't pay you for that.

>To the freelancer just starting out I say: don't get suckered into these kinds of debates, be friendly but firm in rejecting malicious "job offers". Holding out until the right client comes along can be tough

Can also be impossible if you have bills to pay, a family to support, are just starting out. I've been there (move to the tropics with a young family during the economic down turn, the few contacts I had who had promised work before I left were unable to deliver when I arrived (took the best part of two years wandering around the world to get to the destination).

But good clients are out there. I still do the odd bit of work for a couple of clients I got in the early days (<$15 ph data scraping jobs lol). Financially these days isn't worth doing, but they paid on time, offered to pay for time to discuss changes, offered pay for changes, so like to help them out with the odd bits of work they have as they have had many problems with freelance devs (just like I had with other clients)

Re: Wanna quit your job and become upwork freelancer? Do not do that

#70
I have similar experience. I tried to bid to some projects there, but it's just seems to impossible. Every project got 50-100 bids and my bid is just lost. And, as I'm not going to work for free ($20/hr currently), probably my price and lack of reputation makes it impossible to win any project.

I like the idea of this site, but everyone undercuts so much. I live in a poor country, but even there I can make more on a full-time job.

It seems for me that freelancing is really hard. Much harder than work on local site.

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