What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#61

Post by coke12 » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:54 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #27

VLM wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a prop for being low social status. If they wanted masculinity instead of low social status, they would have used football posters and GQ magazine for props in their thought experiment. I'm not quite sure what a prop would be for low social status women.

Do you mean "prop" as in holds something up or "prop" as in, a thing from a scene in a movie? Because I am having some difficulty in parsing your comment.

A "prop" as in a piece of scenery used in a play or movie. In this case nerdy posters are used as props to give a certain vibe.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#62

Post by omegaham » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:56 PM UTC

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

I'll confirm this anecdotally. My sister was extremely good at math and science... until the end of middle school, when she started hanging out in earnest with her friends. Her friends thought that any intellectual interest was nerdy and stupid, and my sister acted accordingly. Now, the girl who was easily learning algebra in elementary school "just can't do math."

I think that the big difference in STEM is that nerdy boys exist in such a number that they can still get acceptance and support. It's not as normal as, say, being a football player, but male nerds aren't exactly rare.

In contrast, because there are much fewer female nerds, their awkwardness is even more exaggerated, and this feeds back on itself to heighten the pressure to conform. Boys find some support in numbers, and their interest in the subjects smooths over any discomfort. Girls don't have any of that support, so if they aren't absolute fanatics about the subjects, they're going to conform.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#63

Post by rewqfdsa » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:56 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #52

mwhuang2 wrote: post #46

I'm a hardcore fan of My Little Pony. Gender stereotypes mean nothing to me.

Yet, it appears that you will assume that we will assume that you are male. Why? Because you are on HN? Is this not buying into gender stereotypes? (I am a woman. I am sometimes referred to as "he" on HN. I am quite open about my gender and it is specified in my profile. But the default assumption here is that anyone talking must be male -- because tech. This is accepting a stereotype.)

Let's suppose that most HN readers are men. There's no obvious gender signaling in your username. (It's two letters long, after all.) What's wrong with someone using the male pronoun as a default until being corrected? Do you expect commentators to read a user's profile before choosing a pronoun for that user? That would be a big efficiency loss for no real benefit. It's unfortunate that this default bothers you, but it's not the responsibility of anyone to prevent offense-taking on the part of another.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#64

Post by jonesb6 » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:57 PM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #14

Upon hearing de Blasio's announcement, my initial reaction was mandatory programming classes for high school is as unnecessary as mandatory calculus. After reading the article, I'd update that opinion. I still don't feel it should be mandatory for a basic High School degree, but perhaps forming a track for college bound students that includes programming (and calculus, AP english, etc.) and requiring that track to gr…

My high school had an abhorrently bad AP CS program. The teacher was a hobbyist who had no business teaching the subject and in fact turned off the majority of the students to CS, especially the girls. I fear anytime we make something mandatory in American education it will only exasperate the terrible education system that we have and ultimately do more harm then good.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#65

Post by TheAceOfHearts » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:59 PM UTC

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

Sewing kits, to me, sound kinda boring. Why not Lego for everyone? Lego is great! It stimulates creativity and you can do whatever you want with it. If you want to play with cars you can make em out of Lego. If you want to roleplay, you can make buildings and use the Lego minifigures! Doesn't that give you the best of both worlds? Heck, even if you're not interested in building your own stuff from scratch, a lot of sets are tons of fun, and all they require you to do is follow instructions.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#66

Post by tptacek » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:00 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

What a strange expectation we have here. I have a couple lawyer friends; none of them have lawyer magazine, or wear lawyer t-shirts.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#67

Post by Mz » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:01 PM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #63

Mz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, it appears that you will assume that we will assume that you are male. Why? Because you are on HN? Is this not buying into gender stereotypes? (I am a woman. I am sometimes referred to as "he" on HN. I am quite open about my gender and it is specified in my profile. But the default assumption here is that anyone talking must be male -- because tech. This is accepting a stereotype.)

Let's suppose that most HN readers are men. There's no obvious gender signaling in your username. (It's two letters long, after all.) What's wrong with someone using the male pronoun as a default until being corrected? Do you expect commentators to read a user's profile before choosing a pronoun for that user? That would be a big efficiency loss for no real benefit. It's unfortunate that this default bothers you, but…

It doesn't hurt my feelings. It does, however, make it harder for most women to participate here. The correct way to handle it is to either find out my gender or speak as if you do not know what it is instead of assuming I am male. If you do not know my gender, it takes very little effort to speak in a way that admits you do not know it:

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-fool-be...

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#68

Post by tptacek » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:01 PM UTC

0x49 wrote: post #50

if i wanted to become a hair stylist (an occupation primarily done by women), i would need to accept a culture that was different than my own...so why cant the same happen with geek culture? The article also goes into many stereotypes and many women arent going into computer science based on these perceived sterotypes. If we were talking about any other group, the words "racist", "sexist", Or "bigot" would be thrown…

Because two wrongs don't make a right.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#69

Post by douche » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:01 PM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #48

This gem is in the comments: > The average programmer spends only about 30 percent of his/her time working alone. That's nowhere close to my figure. In fact, I can pretty much _only_ program alone. Individual investigation and discovery is most of the fun in the field.

There's a lot of faffing about and bike-shedding that occurs in the other 70% of the time, but very little work gets done.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#70

Post by mwhuang2 » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:01 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #52

mwhuang2 wrote: post #46

I'm a hardcore fan of My Little Pony. Gender stereotypes mean nothing to me.

Yet, it appears that you will assume that we will assume that you are male. Why? Because you are on HN? Is this not buying into gender stereotypes? (I am a woman. I am sometimes referred to as "he" on HN. I am quite open about my gender and it is specified in my profile. But the default assumption here is that anyone talking must be male -- because tech. This is accepting a stereotype.)

I assumed people would infer my gender from the wording of my post.