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TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter

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Re: TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter

#61

Post by Lawtonfogle »

guelo wrote: post #42
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't American companies, they're multi-nationals, and will keep the money in a tax haven to avoid paying US taxes on it. And this isn't a prediction, this is what is happening RIGHT NOW. It won't help the US economy one iota, and if you push this dysfunctional nonsense out internationally you have gone from "almost no chance of reform" to "absolutely no chance of reform."

They can hide profits from taxes but they still create jobs and spend money here.

Companies do not create jobs. Demand creates jobs.

Re: TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter

#62

Post by walterbell »

acqq wrote: post #2

"Article QQ.H.7: {Criminal Procedures and Penalties}" "Each Party shall provide for criminal procedures and penalties to be applied at least in cases of willful trademark counterfeiting or copyright or related rights piracy on a commercial scale. In respect of willful copyright or related rights piracy, “on a commercial scale” includes at least:" "(b) significant acts, not carried out for commercial advantage or fina…

In Part 6 of that section:

  (a) penalties that include sentences of imprisonment as 
      well as monetary fines sufficiently high to provide 
      a deterrent to future acts of infringement, 
      consistently with the level of penalties applied 
      for crimes of a corresponding gravity

  (g) that its competent authorities may act upon their own      
      initiative to initiate a legal action without the need 
      for a formal complaint by a private party or right holder

Re: TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter

#63

Post by pdkl95 »

arca_vorago wrote: post #51
clarkmoody wrote: post #17

Criminal penalties agreed upon at the international level basically cede national sovereignty to the "collective" of nations. The individual has nearly no recourse against such crimes, since an appeal would need to go to Congress to change the terms of the treaty.

I think this is the core of the discussion to be had, not just about this treaty but other treaties/TPA's and the general direction of the geostrategic goals of the United States. It's all about national sovereignty, and while I understand the arguments for a reduction of it and an increase in globalism (teetering towards world government ), my main issue is that I don't understand how people who have sworn an oath t…

The American Empire is falling apart[1]. Everybody has been distracted with modern technology and the higher standard of living - and complexity - it brings. We have been riding a powerful economic curve for decades, which has kept most people in a "good enough" situation. Revolutions happen when people start to go hungry, and technology and a good-enough economy has prevented that from happening.

Meanwhile, we are starting to see the inevitable consequences of using profit as the sole criteria used when judging societies[2]. I believe this belief system started much earlier, but the Red Scare certainly locked the country into it's fears about anything that wasn't overtly profit-driven. Once the paranoid-style[3] took over, the country has been locked into that course.

So now we have a situation where some people are paranoid about our failing empire and our declining influence. In an effort to preserve what they see as the status quo, they keep trying ever more radical "fixes". The TPP is one such "fix". When you only consider profit, little things like "rule of law" or actually maintaining a functioning society become less important.

This isn't even about "globalism", at least not directly. This is people who see their world crumbling (aka profits are down). Moving jobs around only happens if it's profitable. You could call it a giant bust out[4], except it's our government that's being looted.

> I don't understand how people who have sworn an oath to protect and the defend the constitution can turn around and undermine it

"Everyone has their price."[5]

Organized and well-funded groups like ALEC[6] have been hard at work offering bribes with pre-written bills attached. I wish Lawrence Lessig luck in his quest[7] to fix the corruption issue, but it is going to take a lot more people joining his fight before it can accomplish anything.

--

[1] If anybody doubts this, I suggest listening to this talk by Lawrence Wilkerson (Colin Powell's former chief of staff): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckjY-FW7-dc

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNttT7hDKsk (abridged written version of that talk: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/david-simon-cap... )

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paranoid_Style_in_American...

[4] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/bain-capital-tony-s...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Christian_%28film%29

[6] http://billmoyers.com/episode/united-states-of-alec-a-follow...

[7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3O1MC1AqvM

Re: TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter

#64

Post by [deleted] »

btown wrote: post #54
acqq wrote: post #2

"Article QQ.H.7: {Criminal Procedures and Penalties}" "Each Party shall provide for criminal procedures and penalties to be applied at least in cases of willful trademark counterfeiting or copyright or related rights piracy on a commercial scale. In respect of willful copyright or related rights piracy, “on a commercial scale” includes at least:" "(b) significant acts, not carried out for commercial advantage or fina…

QQ.H.7(1)(b) would seem to be in place to cover large-scale file sharing that is not done for commercial gain. At least we have this referring to (b): > 136 A Party may provide that the volume and value of any infringing items may be taken into account in determining whether the act has a substantial prejudicial impact on the interests of the copyright or related rights owner in relation to the marketplace. So if you…

[deleted]

Re: TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter

#66

Post by sp332 »

pluma wrote: post #43
bediger4000 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so it has to be big I think you're putting too much faith in the usual meaning of words. Think about the wording of the US Constitution's 2nd Amendment (or 4th Amendment) and how different the legal meaning is from what someone who isn't a lawyer would expect. I bet that "commercial scale" is "at least on the scale of that guy selling knock-off Nikes out the back of his van" after we make it through the courts.

Technically, "commercial scale" can mean anything from "someone somehow made money while doing it" (e.g. from ads to pay for hosting) all the way to "how someone doing it for money might do it" (e.g. using a proxy or fake contact details). It's intentionally vague.

This section specifically says "not carried out for commercial advantage or financial gain", so it doesn't apply to people who actually make money from this. I don't know what section that's covered in though.

Re: TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter

#68

Post by teddyh »

walterbell wrote: post #67
teddyh wrote: post #65

№ 6: The whole Earth, as The Village? № 2: That is my hope. What’s yours? № 6: I’d like to be the first man on the moon. — № 2 & № 6, The Prisoner , The Chimes of Big Ben , 1967

https://youtube.com/watch?v=OfvOGcYUY6g

The conversation I quoted occurs in part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxnTFpConD4#t=4m42s

Re: TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter

#69

Post by ta0967 »

guelo wrote: post #53
nisa wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

liberal copyright laws create jobs. This is the opposite of that. It's big corporations securing profits and making sure there will be no competition.

My point is that we're not getting liberal copyright laws here. At least this helps our economy.

> At least this helps our economy.

please explain how.

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