Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 83 posts

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#61

Post by ssalazar »

userbinator wrote: post #15
danso wrote: post #2

I imagine most of us programming now will be dead by the time (if at all) programming reaches some kind of universal acceptance; think of how long it took for literacy to become universally important, even though reading and writing was done centuries before Gutenberg. 20 years ago, learning programming wasn't as important because the technology just wasn't there to make it a good return on investment. But the value…

Unfortunately I don't know if it ever will reach the same level of importance as literacy, because the industry seems to be trying very hard to discourage regular users from ever becoming programmers or even "advanced users"; see the War on General Purpose Computing: http://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html I mean, how do you even convince someone that learning to…

With Raspberry Pi, Arduino, and similar inexpensive grassroots platforms, programming has never been more accessible. Contrast this with the 80s when a PC cost a month's paycheck or more. "I can't program my iPhone exactly the way I want" really is a first-world problem.

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#62

Post by ytpete »

dopeboy wrote: post #40

I've taught programming on a volunteer basis to high school kids on behalf of a non-profit in NYC for the past two years. [0] Rough thoughts: * This is great news. I'm not the biggest fan of DeBlasio but this is a step in the right direction. There are too many bright and talented kids who never get exposed to computers or the field of programming. Getting to these kids and showing them that they're capable of manipu…

> it needs to be fun and have immediate feedback involved (ideally visual)

This is so huge - it's not just that it's exciting for students and a more rewarding way to show friends & family what you're studying. It's also a great overview of the field: AI, graphics, data structures, performance, network programming, discrete mathematics, concurrency, on and on. You never know what's going to resonate with someone and get them excited about pursuing CS further.

But it's also hard to get through to the CS academia establishment on this. I worked with a professor who struggled for years to get a game programming course accepted by his department. They kept rebuffing him because "games aren't serious." (He eventually left and started a very successful game programming track at a different school).

This was an Ivy League school, and they also seemed overly fixated on theory over practice. I think they had the mentality that in depth hands-on experience equals vocational school. I hope more of the teaching programs coming online now understand how engaging it is to just make fun things with code - and how it can still be a great learning experience as well.

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#63

Post by vezzy-fnord »

cinquemb wrote: post #54
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have user manuals and documentation for this. One need not devote a public school curriculum to it.

Tell that to very prominent VC's in NYC that have been blowing this horn for years in contradiction to your sentiments…[0]. I think public schools (and schools in general as an institution) face the same problem universities are facing: the obsolescence on such a mechanism to effectively and efficiently disseminate knowledge as more and more resources are allocated for signaling of such rather than acquiring/pursuit…

I don't follow. A shell is just a software interface and interpreter like any other. You learn it by reading its manuals, documentation and proceeding to experiment. Whether you acquire the information directly or indirectly via tutorials, examples and other third-party sources is of little relevance to the point. It's an activity divorced from the scope of public education.

I do agree schooling is starting to disintegrate.

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#64

Post by interpol_p »

userbinator wrote: post #15
danso wrote: post #2

I imagine most of us programming now will be dead by the time (if at all) programming reaches some kind of universal acceptance; think of how long it took for literacy to become universally important, even though reading and writing was done centuries before Gutenberg. 20 years ago, learning programming wasn't as important because the technology just wasn't there to make it a good return on investment. But the value…

Unfortunately I don't know if it ever will reach the same level of importance as literacy, because the industry seems to be trying very hard to discourage regular users from ever becoming programmers or even "advanced users"; see the War on General Purpose Computing: http://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html I mean, how do you even convince someone that learning to…

Locked down mobile devices do not prevent you from enjoying programming, or sharing in that joy with others. I make a programming app called Codea for iPad. I get users telling me it brings them back to their first days of coding basic, and kids as young as six using it to make games. My forums are full of people sharing their code and creations.

In fact, I'd say that it's more accessible because it's on a locked down, easy to use device.

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#65

Post by cinquemb »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #63
cinquemb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to very prominent VC's in NYC that have been blowing this horn for years in contradiction to your sentiments…[0]. I think public schools (and schools in general as an institution) face the same problem universities are facing: the obsolescence on such a mechanism to effectively and efficiently disseminate knowledge as more and more resources are allocated for signaling of such rather than acquiring/pursuit…

I don't follow. A shell is just a software interface and interpreter like any other. You learn it by reading its manuals, documentation and proceeding to experiment. Whether you acquire the information directly or indirectly via tutorials, examples and other third-party sources is of little relevance to the point. It's an activity divorced from the scope of public education. I do agree schooling is starting to disint…

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiments, I was just more or less stating that, there are monied interests in NYC like Fred Wilson, where if you go back through all his blog posts (or crawl the links in the sitemaps and enumerate all the instances of "kids/children" and "programming/code" in the same sentence, or within 1 or two words of each other you will see that it is greater than 0), who feel that it needs to be in the scope of public education.

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#66

Post by vezzy-fnord »

cinquemb wrote: post #65
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow. A shell is just a software interface and interpreter like any other. You learn it by reading its manuals, documentation and proceeding to experiment. Whether you acquire the information directly or indirectly via tutorials, examples and other third-party sources is of little relevance to the point. It's an activity divorced from the scope of public education. I do agree schooling is starting to disint…

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiments, I was just more or less stating that, there are monied interests in NYC like Fred Wilson, where if you go back through all his blog posts (or crawl the links in the sitemaps and enumerate all the instances of "kids/children" and "programming/code" in the same sentence, or within 1 or two words of each other you will see that it is greater than 0), who feel that it needs to be…

Oh, that much is obvious. Code.org is probably the most egregious lobbying offender on that front.

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#67

Post by cinquemb »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #66
cinquemb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiments, I was just more or less stating that, there are monied interests in NYC like Fred Wilson, where if you go back through all his blog posts (or crawl the links in the sitemaps and enumerate all the instances of "kids/children" and "programming/code" in the same sentence, or within 1 or two words of each other you will see that it is greater than 0), who feel that it needs to be…

Oh, that much is obvious. Code.org is probably the most egregious lobbying offender on that front.

Whenever a good thing™ comes along, there seems to be the tendency for some in a society to want to jam it down others throats (this is far from being the only "We need ____ in schools, NOW!" initiative), and the more ways the better.

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#68

Post by dopeboy »

ytpete wrote: post #62
dopeboy wrote: post #40

I've taught programming on a volunteer basis to high school kids on behalf of a non-profit in NYC for the past two years. [0] Rough thoughts: * This is great news. I'm not the biggest fan of DeBlasio but this is a step in the right direction. There are too many bright and talented kids who never get exposed to computers or the field of programming. Getting to these kids and showing them that they're capable of manipu…

> it needs to be fun and have immediate feedback involved (ideally visual) This is so huge - it's not just that it's exciting for students and a more rewarding way to show friends & family what you're studying. It's also a great overview of the field: AI, graphics, data structures, performance, network programming, discrete mathematics, concurrency, on and on. You never know what's going to resonate with someone and…

One one hand I get academia and on the other hand I don't.

They might argue because it's computer science there should an emphasis on theory over the practice. And while the practice (individual technologies and languages) change rapidly, the concepts moreorless stay the same. There are also software engineering and informatics majors that bring in more practice.

On the other hand, most employers want kids from the "hard" disciplines. And academia knows this and actively promotes themselves based on these metrics. So why not be a little forward thinking and integrate more practical skills into the curriculum like version control, more team projects, more practice with web development, etc? The whole holier-than-thou mentality that you reference is immature and has got to go.

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#69

Post by perfTerm »

dopeboy wrote: post #50
perfTerm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the day to day level I'd say certain subjects might be more applicable to this sentiment than others. For instance, sexual education where the results can be life changing. But as for computer science, like regular science, it will inspire a few kids who go on to learn their follies and produce work in the field and everyone else will either trudge through it or drop it and never have it affect their daily life in…

> On the day to day level I'd say certain subjects might be more applicable to this sentiment than others. For instance, sexual education where the results can be life changing. I'd argue acquiring skills that could take one out of poverty as pretty life changing. > But as for computer science, like regular science, it will inspire a few kids who go on to learn their follies and produce work in the field and everyone…

Yea it may be worded odd but I'm all for it and was very happy to see the announcement even if it won't be mandatory for all students (which is nice in some ways for the teachers and students both I think).

Re: New York Mayor De Blasio to Require Computer Science in Schools

#70

Post by yeukhon »

dopeboy wrote: post #40

I've taught programming on a volunteer basis to high school kids on behalf of a non-profit in NYC for the past two years. [0] Rough thoughts: * This is great news. I'm not the biggest fan of DeBlasio but this is a step in the right direction. There are too many bright and talented kids who never get exposed to computers or the field of programming. Getting to these kids and showing them that they're capable of manipu…

To be honest I didn't volunteer because the program expects "to teach during the school day (usually 8:00-9:30 AM) or during after-school hours (between 3:30 and 5:00 PM)" and that's not something most people can really afford.

Saturday is a different story.

Anyway, I also agree that computer science might not be the right word. When I was in junior high I was given a year long computer course but it was just teaching how to use Safari and the text editor on the old colorful Mac (that was back in 2003, 2004). But when I was in my 3rd grade in Hong Kong I was already beginning to learn how to use computer and then 4th grade learning HTML using DreamWeaver MX in school. We had a beautiful computer lab, not a classroom with broken chair and outdated computer. I am not a front-end guy but being able to just make a simple static webpage was really awesome.

I think they should teach how the whole agile project life cycle, give tech talk, build a couple projects on their own, think of it as a freshman engineering 101 class.

Post reply on HN