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Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#61

Post by run4yourlives »

palish wrote: post #60
run4yourlives wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said you couldn't do it, you just can't do it the way you prefer: parent {} child{ margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 100px; }

My question is simply, what's the reasoning behind my inability to type: child{ center: horizontal; } That would be very newcomer-friendly. Possibly naive, but I'm interested to know why.

1. center to what?

1a. child is 0px wide.

2. semantics: You're basically saying "Why isn't language x exactly like language y/how I want it to be?"

3. margin is what you're adjusting, so saying margin-auto makes sense.

4. Layers and layering are an important aspect of CSS, you've just broken all of them.

Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#62

Post by pg »

dcurtis wrote: post #59
pg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degeneracy_%28mathematics%29 HTML w/ CSS is actually easier to use You just don't seem to get that I don't use html. I generate it. Your argument is like saying it's easier to write programs in old-style instruction sets than RISC ones. Sure, but the best approach of all is to write in neither, and instead have a program generate it. Then it doesn't matter which you use. Complaining that…

I don't get it. Just because it's generated by Arc doesn't mean it has to: 1. Ignore web standards, 2. Forgo readability, or 3. Make bloated code. I mean, look at the source of hacker news. Its just not elegant. Whether or not you believe it should be, HTML/CSS was designed to be coded a certain way and browsers expect that format. Why change it and suggedt that you're turning HTML into something it isn't ?

1. How is using tables ignoring web standards?

2. Html is object code. What matters is the readability of the source code that generates it. Worrying about the readability of the output of a compiler is akin to premature optimization.

3. The front page of News.YC is 30k. If you think that's bloated, I hope you don't visit sites that contain images.

Do you understand what I mean about the distinction between source and object code? Saying that html ought to be elegant implies that you don't. As a rule, the more elegant the language, the less elegant its object code is, because the further removed its concepts are from the primitive concepts used by a compiler.

Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#63

Post by Xichekolas »

run4yourlives wrote: post #33
imsteve wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will save you work in the long run That's the biggest lie of them all. And maintenance? No one does that, they do re-writes. How many hours have I wasted on this joke of not using tables?

Have you ever operated a website with over a hundred pages? Just curious. And as far as hours wasted, having coded both ways, and originally viewing css as stupid and more work, I can now code a website in half the time using it than tables. In fact, when I'm just hacking something quick, it's great not to bother with any layout at all and just come back to it when I have the time. You can't do that with tables.

Who maintains 'hundreds of pages' of HTML? Don't you offload everything into templates or dynamically generate it? The last time I managed hundreds of pages of html, or even html with dynamic content spliced in, was in 2001, and that was against my will.

A quick rewrite took care of that too. HTML is an output format, not a language.

Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#64

Post by imsteve »

cedsav wrote: post #28
imsteve wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't "hack" html or css, they aren't languages. Furthermore, CSS is a lie. A lie for designer snobs.

...says the developer snob.

You can use tables or css, I don't care. Forcing one over the other is rediculous though. And yes, only snobs insist on never using tables.

Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#65

Post by imsteve »

randallsquared wrote: post #31
imsteve wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't "hack" html or css, they aren't languages. Furthermore, CSS is a lie. A lie for designer snobs.

Oh, so when everyone keeps saying the cake is a lie, they mean "CSS" by "the cake"?

And where do smart people put their cake? On a table, that's where.

Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#66

Post by run4yourlives »

pg wrote: post #62
dcurtis wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. Just because it's generated by Arc doesn't mean it has to: 1. Ignore web standards, 2. Forgo readability, or 3. Make bloated code. I mean, look at the source of hacker news. Its just not elegant. Whether or not you believe it should be, HTML/CSS was designed to be coded a certain way and browsers expect that format. Why change it and suggedt that you're turning HTML into something it isn't ?

1. How is using tables ignoring web standards? 2. Html is object code. What matters is the readability of the source code that generates it. Worrying about the readability of the output of a compiler is akin to premature optimization. 3. The front page of News.YC is 30k. If you think that's bloated, I hope you don't visit sites that contain images. Do you understand what I mean about the distinction between source an…

1. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#structure It most certainly ignores accessibility standards; also the spirit of all the other W3C standards.

2. I guess we know where you stand on the semantic web, don't we! :-) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_Web)

3. It's your bandwidth money. I'm not paying for it. (Of course, I would disagree with the GP that HN is bloated)

Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#67

Post by run4yourlives »

Xichekolas wrote: post #63
run4yourlives wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever operated a website with over a hundred pages? Just curious. And as far as hours wasted, having coded both ways, and originally viewing css as stupid and more work, I can now code a website in half the time using it than tables. In fact, when I'm just hacking something quick, it's great not to bother with any layout at all and just come back to it when I have the time. You can't do that with tables.

Who maintains 'hundreds of pages' of HTML? Don't you offload everything into templates or dynamically generate it? The last time I managed hundreds of pages of html, or even html with dynamic content spliced in, was in 2001, and that was against my will. A quick rewrite took care of that too. HTML is an output format, not a language.

As an output format, it should be easily altered to display in various forms.

CSS with semantic HTML achieves this, embedded presentation does not.

Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#68

Post by dcurtis »

pg wrote: post #62
dcurtis wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. Just because it's generated by Arc doesn't mean it has to: 1. Ignore web standards, 2. Forgo readability, or 3. Make bloated code. I mean, look at the source of hacker news. Its just not elegant. Whether or not you believe it should be, HTML/CSS was designed to be coded a certain way and browsers expect that format. Why change it and suggedt that you're turning HTML into something it isn't ?

1. How is using tables ignoring web standards? 2. Html is object code. What matters is the readability of the source code that generates it. Worrying about the readability of the output of a compiler is akin to premature optimization. 3. The front page of News.YC is 30k. If you think that's bloated, I hope you don't visit sites that contain images. Do you understand what I mean about the distinction between source an…

1. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.ycombina...

2. Ill admit defeat on this point. (but see below)

3. With all the td, tr, etc tags, it seems messy. I don't know for sure, but I think using a stylesheet could reduce the size. I'll code hacker news in CSS when I have a few minutes and try to get the HTML+CSS under 30k.

Relatively, its a small site. That's awesome because it loads fast and I can comment using my treo, like I am now. Thanks for spending so much energy on speed.

But if it can be smaller by using CSS, I think that's a reason to switch. Don't you?

Anyway, regarding source/object code, I don't mean to disagree with you. I'm just saying that HTML was designed to be looked at and Hacker News disregards all of the convention there. I guess that's okay, its just extremely unusual.

Re: Ask YC: Why is YC's layout table based?

#69

Post by dcurtis »

run4yourlives wrote: post #66
pg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. How is using tables ignoring web standards? 2. Html is object code. What matters is the readability of the source code that generates it. Worrying about the readability of the output of a compiler is akin to premature optimization. 3. The front page of News.YC is 30k. If you think that's bloated, I hope you don't visit sites that contain images. Do you understand what I mean about the distinction between source an…

1. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#structure It most certainly ignores accessibility standards; also the spirit of all the other W3C standards. 2. I guess we know where you stand on the semantic web, don't we! :-) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_Web ) 3. It's your bandwidth money. I'm not paying for it. (Of course, I would disagree with the GP that HN is bloated)

You're right, bloated was a bad word to use.
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