I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed • Hacker News Board

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#591

Post by kuschku » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 6:00 PM UTC

ericdschmidt wrote: post #527

steve-howard wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only follow that argument if we're talking about citizens that already have assets. Increased competition for houses, used cars, and rentals will drive up prices, which is good news only if you own houses, cars, and rental property respectively.

Productivity is the root of all prosperity. Read this excellent article: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2015/02/always_keep_you.... . Workers become on average ~20x more productive when they migrate to the first world. Because we are capital rich and we have sane government and law and order. Imagine if you were moved to Haiti and you got stuck there. How much could you contribute to society in Haiti? You could…

And that’s exactly why the politicians in my state were the first in europe to allow all refugees and asylum seekers to live and work like any citizen. Because that productivity increase also boosts the local economy.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#592

Post by sliverstorm » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 6:17 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #308

sliverstorm wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument seems to be "that damage is part of life, deal with it". That's fine, I was just trying to answer your question: damaging in what sense? I don't assume all immigrants are foreign invaders, thank you very much. On the other hand, I have known some immigrants who expressly wanted to get rid of the people in the town they had just moved to and import their old country's people, culture, and government.…

I have known some immigrants who expressly wanted to get rid of the people in the town they had just moved to and import their old country's people, culture, and government And what percentage of immigrants do you suppose those folks actually represent? Are they really such a large group of people that they could actively "damage" a culture? Are they really so large a group that they could actually "dilute" the cultu…

"There's not enough of those types for them to cause damage" is not an unreasonable line of argument. One could argue it's OK to admit them because they will get nowhere.

The "immigrant horde hell bent on reinventing their home country" is not the narrative I was trying to present. I was mostly talking about the simple fact that a small homogeneous country that admits a very large number of immigrants (of any type, wanting to integrate or not) will be unable to integrate them all without experiencing significant change, which is concerning to some people. (You have already shared you believe it is a real effect but 'too bad'. I am clear there)

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#593

Post by exelius » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 6:47 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #324

mc32 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culturally the US is protestant leaning. Latam is culturally catholic. Latams see Spain as a cultural beacon, whereas the the U.S. now a beacon in its own right, used to have Britain and France as their cultural beacons --yes France was nominally catholic, but they culturally leaned protestant in many ways. They are more northern European than Mediterranean. Also, while in the U.S. the so called 'old boys net' helps…

> Relationships are paramount and make corruption endemic and inextricable. Well, in honor of the harsh reality USA have also is own quota of this cake, supporting some very shady people in South America in the last decades, like Pinochito for example...

In the US, relationships don't matter as much. They still matter for your career, but someone will do business with you as a way to start a relationship. In many places, the relationship is a prerequisite to doing business. If you don't have the relationship, you can usually just pay a bribe.

I wouldn't try to link the US' foreign policy to our cultural norms. Foreign policy exists in the realm of realpolitik, and every rational actor would likely behave the same way if they were in the US' place. When it comes to setting the global balance of power, anything and everything is fair game. This is why presidents customarily don't criticize those who come after them.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#594

Post by maulikmehta123 » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 7:07 PM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #259

murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

> So who's lobbying against this exactly? If you've ever come across any posts on HN regarding immigrant workers in technology (who are on the same visa, the H1B†, that the author of the Vox article was on), you will see a shockingly offensive amount contempt and hatred for highly-skilled immigrants . To answer your question more directly, despite high support for skilled immigration reform, there are currently 2 sen…

I wouldn't say Sen grassley is anti-immigrant. He is infact open to h1b visa provided the tech sector accepts his bill as well to protect abuse. In short what Grassley is providing is a poison pill for Body shops but not for really talented advanced degree graduates. Sessions on the other hand is out right anti immigrant and a racist Pig. All Americans fail to understand that 30-40% of H1B's are Masters/Phd's for American schools.. Not all are body shop products like the ones used in Disney.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#595

Post by lutorm » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #365

lutorm wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems you're contradicting yourself. You say "I think it's fair to complain that this option doesn't exist, I'd like it to exist." But then you go on to disparage the author for doing just that. You can't simultaneously say that it's fair to complain and argue that people are "just complaining". Or is it only fair for people not affected by these laws, who have no incentive to complain, to do so?

It's fair to complain that a better option doesn't exist. It's not fair to take no action given the existing options and then complain the system was unfair and against you. The author had choices available, but chose not to avail himself of any of them, then wants sympathy for not pursuing. Immigration was simply not as important to him as other things, and those are the choices he made. I don't feel any particular…

I kind of see what your point is, but I disagree. A person's right to point out flaws in a system should not be contingent upon having overcome those flaws. I see that it would be easy to feel more sympathy for the author if he had fought tooth and nail against the system and still come out on the losing end, but that is really a completely separate topic from whether his arguments about the system itself are justified or not. The weight of the arguments should not depend on who is making them, they should stand for themselves.

Your reasoning sounds to me a bit like the (common) argument that a bicyclist that is injured by a car and then complains that the roads aren't accommodating bicycles shouldn't be taken seriously because he didn't wear a helmet, and everyone knows that bicycling is dangerous. Whether or not he should wear a helmet as a precaution doesn't change the fact that bicyclists have a basic right to argue that they should not be subject to this risk.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#596

Post by maulikmehta123 » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 7:39 PM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #259

murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

> So who's lobbying against this exactly? If you've ever come across any posts on HN regarding immigrant workers in technology (who are on the same visa, the H1B†, that the author of the Vox article was on), you will see a shockingly offensive amount contempt and hatred for highly-skilled immigrants . To answer your question more directly, despite high support for skilled immigration reform, there are currently 2 sen…

Secondly coming to the issue of American IT workers being replaced. Although I personally do not agree with using H1B to displace workers I also think American IT workers need to think about what kind of wages they expect for outdated and rapidly changing IT knowledge.. I have an excellent example in my own company.. A 48yr old American IT worker who makes close to 120-130K per annum... Let me tell you he does a good job but his work merely includes assembling PC's for employees, fixing bugs (rebooting Virus scan) and writing minor scripts once in a year to ensure email and server security. Majority of the time he just makes sure that all the employees machines are running smoothly. In terms of education he has an Associate degree in STEM and has been working for the company for 15 years.His position title says Systems Engineer. However a Systems Engineer in Google might actually be working on the Driver less car. Now the reality is that today the work that he has been doing can be taken care of by anyone even without a technical background.. so why pay him 120K? His knowledge was unique and fresh when he joined in 1998 but now in 2015 he is still in the same position , has the same qualifications and doing the same work everyday.. I am not blaming him..for this .. He is getting 120K for a skill set which is obsolete.. why would he think of trying something more or advancing his career..Since our company has a very small IT staff they might not take a step like Disney but otherwise this guy would have been long replaced. If I were him I would look towards more active roles within the company or else If I am so attracted to IT then I would go back to school update myself with the IT of Today and apply to a company that might need my new skills..

Overall my point is that the technical world is such that today nobody wants to buy an iphone 3GS today. Even if there are some buyers then they definitely do not want to pay $600 to buy it

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#597

Post by maulikmehta123 » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 8:44 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #282

winter_blue wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So who's lobbying against this exactly? If you've ever come across any posts on HN regarding immigrant workers in technology (who are on the same visa, the H1B†, that the author of the Vox article was on), you will see a shockingly offensive amount contempt and hatred for highly-skilled immigrants . To answer your question more directly, despite high support for skilled immigration reform, there are currently 2 sen…

> If you've ever come across any posts on HN regarding immigrant workers in technology (who are on the same visa, the H1B†, that the author of the Vox article was on), you will see a shockingly offensive amount contempt and hatred for highly-skilled immigrants. Well, that's probably largely because the system is being abused to bring in questionable workers and drive down wages.

Although I personally do not agree with using H1B to displace workers I also think American IT workers need to think about what kind of wages they expect for outdated and rapidly changing IT knowledge.. I have an excellent example in my own company.. A 48yr old American IT worker who makes close to 120-130K per annum... Let me tell you he does a good job but his work merely includes assembling PC's for employees, fixing bugs (rebooting Virus scan) and writing minor scripts once in a year to ensure email and server security. Majority of the time he just makes sure that all the employees machines are running smoothly. In terms of education he has an Associate degree in STEM and has been working for the company for 15 years.His position title says Systems Engineer. However a Systems Engineer in Google might actually be working on the Driver less car. Now the reality is that today the work that he has been doing can be taken care of by anyone even without a technical background.. so why pay him 120K? His knowledge was unique and fresh when he joined in 1998 but now in 2015 he is still in the same position , has the same qualifications and doing the same work everyday.. I am not blaming him..for this .. He is getting 120K for a skill set which is obsolete.. why would he think of trying something more or advancing his career..Since our company has a very small IT staff they might not take a step like Disney but otherwise this guy would have been long replaced. If I were him I would look towards more active roles within the company or else If I am so attracted to IT then I would go back to school update myself with the IT of Today and apply to a company that might need my new skills.. Overall my point is that the technical world is such that today nobody wants to buy an iphone 3GS today. Even if there are some buyers then they definitely do not want to pay $600 to buy it

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#598

Post by ElComradio » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 8:59 PM UTC

dsinsky wrote: post #530

ElComradio wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you willingly train/mentor somebody if you knew the outcome would be that she would compete for your job personally, or that your wage would go down 20%? Frequently calls for equality are made by those who imagine their own situation could not possibly worsen; it's always some anonymous others who will pay.

I agree it sucks for anyone to lose their job, but using that as an excuse for xenophobic policy is a non-sequitur. Do you honestly think there would have been a national uproar against Disney if they'd asked their employees to train other Americans? Try replacing "foreign H1B worker" with "person of another skin color" and see if your arguments don't sound abhorrent. If you think the later sounds racist, the former…

It's more like replace "H1B worker" with "anybody". The idea is that tech workers are being asked to expand the labor pool and basically contribute to eroding their own value without realizing it. It doesn't matter the race gender or citizenship; by reducing the scope to individuals instead of anonymous groupings it becomes clear what is happening.

It is probably noble to say that you would personally hand your own job over to somebody else. But of course it is never framed that way even though that is what is actually happening.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#599

Post by tellarin » Wed, Jun 24, 2015, 11:27 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #455

InclinedPlane wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America hasn't bankrupted itself "raising the children of others". America has accepted others into its family, and grown stronger and wealthier because of it. Thomas Paine: immigrant Andrew Carnegie: immigrant Nikola Tesla: immigrant Igor Sikorsky: immigrant Albert Einstein: immigrant Cary Grant: immigrant William Shockley (co-inventor of the transistor): immigrant Wernher Von Braun: immigrant Eddie Van Halen: immig…

[deleted]

You seem to forget that, for example, many of those immigrants supported slavery and brought in many immigrants from Africa.

Or that Texas was once part of Mexico and a bunch of illegal immigrants from the U.S. there declared its independence (and later joined the U.S.).

Or the loads of Chinese that worked on the west expansion (and multiple waves later) whose "assimilation" was nothing close to easy.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#600

Post by speeder » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 12:53 AM UTC

lagadu wrote: post #554

speeder wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I go with the three of you? I am from Brazil and want to go anywhere but here (or countries like here...) I even did some interviews for companies in Amsterdan but they didn't went well :(

I suspect the easiest way for you would be to get a job in Portugal. Once that's done live/work there for 6 years for the naturalization. At that point you can just use your Portuguese ID card to live and work anywhere within the EEA; visas, immigration laws and work permits will never be a concern again.

My sister is trying to figure that out I believe.

I have a portuguese grandpa (as in, actually from Portugal), my family even owned stuff in portugal, but somehow all the documents proving it disappeared. My sister and some cousins will try to figure it out, if that fails option B is travelling to portugal in person to ask for a copy of the documents there, if that fail, then getting a job in Portugal and hope they will give a citizenship...

But seriously, most of my family that are portuguese descent are retretting that their ancestors left Portugal and want to return to Europe, even with all the crisis there, it is still better than Brazil (or most other south-american countries).