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Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

paulgraham.com

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Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#591

Post by read »

geebee wrote: post #572
geebee wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to strongly disagree with you on one point here. If you use very inflammatory language, you need to accept a degree of responsibility it the discussion veers rapidly off topic. PG chose to appy the phrase "anti-immigrant" to the people he disagrees with. Keep in mind, there are people who support high levels of immigration (the US currently takes 1.2+ million immigrants a year), support a path to legalizati…

I'm unable to edit the above remark, so I'll have to leave a new comment. After re-reading the original post, I am obliged to point out that PG does not use the phrase "anti-immigrant" as I claimed, he uses the phrase "anti-immigration people." This was my mistake, and I apologize for the error. Calling someone "anti-immigrant" (directed at a person) is more serious than calling them "anti-immigration" (directed at a…

What label would you have used instead?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#592

Post by geebee »

read wrote: post #591
geebee wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unable to edit the above remark, so I'll have to leave a new comment. After re-reading the original post, I am obliged to point out that PG does not use the phrase "anti-immigrant" as I claimed, he uses the phrase "anti-immigration people." This was my mistake, and I apologize for the error. Calling someone "anti-immigrant" (directed at a person) is more serious than calling them "anti-immigration" (directed at a…

What label would you have used instead?

please see my response to brandonhsiao below.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#593

Post by read »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #439
dang wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Charity" as in the Principle of Charity has a specialized meaning. It isn't about being nice (though we should do that too). It's about keeping discussions substantive. Since that is the raison d'etre of Hacker News threads, I do indeed think we can expect HN commenters to be charitable in this sense.

And for the most part substantive posts get substantive comments. This just isn't a substantive post. It's full of loaded language, highly questionable assertions, and doubtful anecdotes.

(1) You objected to the term "anti-immigration". If that phrase could be changed to something else that roughly means "oppose immigration" what phrase would you have used?

(2) If a phrase that you suggest is used, would this allow you to focus on the substance of the argument?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#594

Post by hackerboos »

cmdkeen wrote: post #153
wrs wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying more will just shuffle around the exceptional programmers who are already in the US. But pg's point is that the US should be trying to attract more exceptional programmers. And the more the better, because they don't just add talent, they multiply it. (That's one thing that makes them "exceptional".) The secret sauce of Silicon Valley is not just the exceptional people, it's that they're all in the same place.

And that another country could attract those 95% and do great things with them. Several European countries are keen to do so, and with access to the EU's pool of citizens it would be a great place to try and a new tech hub from. Sadly anti-immigration and/or anti-capitalism feelings are also strong in many EU countries which hampers this movement. I wish the UK could make more of our draw.

anti-capitalism feelings are also strong in many EU countries

Where?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#595

Post by hackerboos »

tomohawk wrote: post #270
gnufied wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder where do you get your data for "hire someone from India for half the cost". Of all the facts thrown around - this is easily verifiable - http://www.h1bwage.com/index.php If you ignore those employed on hourly basis, a majority of people on H1B are paid quite well. Apart from salary and benefits - add Visa processing fees for their Kids and Spouse as well (which can easily amount to > 30k+) I think people und…

The real problem with h1b is that it appears to be primarily used to offshore jobs to other countries. The largest users of h1b visas are firms that bring people to the US for a period of time to get trained, then have them return to their country of origin, offshoring the work (see for example http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-02-08/work-visas-ma... ) So, tossing H1B would be a great start at immigration refo…

So, tossing H1B would be a great start at immigration reform. Instead, we should prefer immigrants with educational backgrounds in skills we need, and who have the best chance at assimilation.

Isn't that basically how Canada and Australia's visa programs work?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#596

Post by read »

thmcmahon wrote: post #375
danmaz74 wrote: post #108

It looks to me like the solution to the problem is simple. Just have a "high tech visa" with no number limit, but one simple requirement: The company requesting the job needs to be offering something like 150% (or 200% or whatever makes sense) the average salary of the US workforce, or in their state. This will ensure that the visa will only be offered for skills that are difficult to find in the USA (or the specific…

This is essentially how the 457 visa works in Australia. It's uncapped but you have to pay a 'market salary rate', which is either the salary of an equivalent worker in the firm, or of an equivalent worker In the industry.

The problem with what you mention about Australia is regression to the mean. 'Market salary rate' means average salary, which is not what a great programmer is worth.

What danmaz74 suggested is better.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#597

Post by hackerboos »

davidw wrote: post #586
UK-AL wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its already happened in my country. Web developers are hired on minimum wage.

I know a bunch of people in the UK doing web stuff, and none of them are making minimum wage. Far from it.

Junior web development positions outside of London can easily pay 15,000 - 17,000 GBP. This is really low.

Wages for developers on the whole in the UK are far lower than the US.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#598

Post by yellow_and_gray »

zanny wrote: post #328
killedbydeath wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "your" side US-born developers? I was born outside and was able to immigrate to the US on H1B. For the last few years it is very hard for my friends to do the same. I wish they were given the opportunity. In no way they are inferior to Americans. US became what it is because of openness to immigration. But these days it's easier for engineers to immigrate to Europe or Asia than the US. It may have long-term compet…

Why didn't you and your friends found companies in your home country? You do realize many h1b visa programmers, and the ones they want in the future, are just being taken advantage of to drive wages down? What is wrong with immigrating to Europe / Asia? As an American, if I had many foreign associates that wanted to work for / with me, I would not hesitate to relocate with them to some country that lets us, that woul…

> What is wrong with immigrating to Europe / Asia?

You may be right here. I used to think it's better to immigrate to the US, because that's where everyone was immigrating to. I thought I wouldn't find good people elsewhere. But your comment just made me realize I'm not so sure.

> and all the potential startups and growth elsewhere wither and die

All of them, really? Every single one? There's no middle-ground?

> It is not like you are going to be founding the next big thing while bound to employment at one of the big three to stay in the country.

Why did you exclude that as a possibility?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#599

Post by yellow_and_gray »

aceperry wrote: post #563
dang wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to miss my point, which is not about immigration, but about the quality of discussion on Hacker News.

dang, what can I say, you seem to have missed my point. You're criticizing the way people have responded to pg's post. While that may be valid, you fail to criticize pg's 'quality' of writing, which can also be considered inflammatory. How about a little balance here?

What are you really against?

What do you want to see happen?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#600

Post by yellow_and_gray »

smm2000 wrote: post #541
LetBinding wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only for fungible types of workers. Programmers, software engineers, data scientists, product managers, designers, etc aren't like farm or construction laborers. These skills aren't commodities.

That's exactly how Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft and most other big companies view software engineers. Engineers go through standard interview process (3-5 technical interviews, 1 behaviour interview) and then companies assume that everyone above the hiring bar can be assigned to pretty much any project at the company. Companies use this process because it works - engineers are mostly fungible. The above is not…

Considering how Apple and Google tried to fix the salaries of software engineers to stay low, maybe even that isn't an option in big companies.
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