SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas • Hacker News Board

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#591

Post by JohnBooty » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 3:14 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #577

JohnBooty wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but for one to expect they'd never overhear anything that > they would not discuss personally would be an unwarranted > imposition on others. If she'd walked by their table in a restaurant and overheard them, or eavesdropped on them by putting her ear up to a closed door? Okay, then they might be able to claim they never could have expected to be overheard. But they were sitting directly behind her. Literally a few…

They probably expected that she wouldn't be paying attention to them or just didn't think about her listening in. People talk about all kinds of stuff while on talks or other group situations all the time, and not every time they study the surroundings to see if somebody is listening or not. The point here the talk wasn't directed at her, and while it would be appropriate to point out to the guys that there are in a…

  > blowing it into an incident of systemic misogyny and 
  > rampant sexism that is worth losing a job over seems to
  > me way out of proportion.

I agree: the response was out of proportion. I think literally every entity directly involved in this situation could have handled it better.

However, just because the response was out of proportion doesn't mean anybody needs to defend the men who were sitting behind her, or strain their credibility by pondering how - how? - these men could have possibly known that the person sitting directly in front of them, several feet away, could have heard their sexual jokes.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#592

Post by katbyte » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 7:25 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #585

katbyte wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the wiki: "Some sociologists have defined racism as a system of group privilege." That i can understand, Its racism. no argument there. So your changing the context of the word so the intent does not matter but the effect does? that's outrageous. Racism is all about the outcome AND intent. why do all these mental gymnastics just so you can say X cannot be racist towards Y? Why even say something like that? I can…

> Racism is all about the outcome AND intent. Agreed, but individual's acts of racism don't exist in a vacuum. The aggregate effect those racist actions and attitudes creates systemic power imbalances. This wiki has starting material about the institutional and systemic effects of racism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism . > why do all these mental gymnastics just so you can say X cannot be racist to…

> Often I will see a white or white passing person call a person of color racist when the situation they are talking about is actually caused by the systemic racism that they benefit from.

If the actions are racist, it doesn't matter what caused them, they are racist. To say otherwise invites a double standard.

> This is not true. Black people will never be able to exercise systemic racism against white people in US society.

Yes it is true. your assuming racist == systemic/institutional. That is not the commonly held or actual definition. It is true that overall in the US Black people will never be able to exercise systemic racism. But that's not all racism is, nor is the US the only place on the planet. And systemic/institutional can range from a company to a state to a country.

> Racism at a society level different compared to individual acts of racism.

Yes, but its not the only form of racism, your trying to redefine a word and i can't see what good it does. Prefix it with systemic/institutional, limit its scope and then maybe you can make such statements (as you did your entire post) but alone by its self you just can't.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#593

Post by katbyte » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 7:29 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #586

katbyte wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not excuse for snapping and overreacting to the extremes she did. There were avenues for her to express her discomfort and she op[ted for the most extreme and disproportionate option.

This doesn't make sense to me. Tweeting a pic and complaining to pycon staff are not extreme in any way. Blogging about that experience to share information about what kind of micro-aggressions someone may face at a con is not extreme.

The only action she made that was extreme was posting the photo identifying it. Everyone else was OK. Everyone else was great! but the photo was out of line for something so minor, or as you say micro. It would have been a non-story if she hadn't identified them with a photo.

Not only that there 3 people in the photo, she doesn't even identify who it was and i feel for that poor guy on the left who had nothing at all to do with it.

She had no regard for the damage her actions could and did cause others and that makes her far worse then the man who made a stupid joke. he was a unprofessional and immature. She was a bully.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#594

Post by smsm42 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 8:00 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #591

smsm42 wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably expected that she wouldn't be paying attention to them or just didn't think about her listening in. People talk about all kinds of stuff while on talks or other group situations all the time, and not every time they study the surroundings to see if somebody is listening or not. The point here the talk wasn't directed at her, and while it would be appropriate to point out to the guys that there are in a…

> blowing it into an incident of systemic misogyny and > rampant sexism that is worth losing a job over seems to > me way out of proportion. I agree: the response was out of proportion. I think literally every entity directly involved in this situation could have handled it better. However, just because the response was out of proportion doesn't mean anybody needs to defend the men who were sitting behind her, or str…

The point is that they did not intend it to be directed at her and probably were not regarding her as part of the conversation. Human perception is very selective, and you can literally look at things and not see them. There's nothing @-ist in this, it's just how the brain works. Should the guys be more aware when in public places? Yes. This can be handled by a gentle reminder, not by a public campaign. Of course, this does not produce a splashy effect of fighting @-isms and being on the forefront of the struggle for all good against all evil, but it is usually better for everyone involved. Which is the main point of it, and hopefully more people realizing it would be at least a little win in this huge heap of fail.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#595

Post by quahada » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 8:03 PM UTC

seivan wrote: post #173

blindhippo wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Those two guys could easily be and my partner making silly phallus jokes because we fucking like to. You have no right to be offended. Which is why KKK and Westboro has freedom of speech." Sure, you can make jokes about wangs as much as you want. Do so in a public setting and yes you can and will offend people. And yes, they have a RIGHT to be offended by it. It's inappropriate behavior in a public setting ESPECIALL…

Sorry I wasn't making my point across. Lets put it this way, taking a photo of two guys (probably geo-tagged) and uploading on internet because they said something you generally don't like. _That is what happened_ How does she know those two guys aren't on protected identity, or have issues with being online on social media? I don't have Facebook because I don't want to be tagged on anything. She had no fucking right…

You do have the right to take & upload a photo of nearly anything and anyone in a public place. That form of speech is protected by the 1st amendment.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#596

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 8:20 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #445

jmagoon wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm...'colorblindness' by a privileged group is a refusal to acknowledge the real inadequacies between social groups. Basically, "I treat everyone the same--I don't see color" (or gender, or sexual orientation, etc.) is a luxury that only exists for some. For people discriminated against, they /have/ to see color, gender, etc., because it's a limiting condition of their social situation.

I see color (and gender, and sexual orientation, etc.). I just don't let them effect how I treat people. But it seems pretty clear that this is a standard only some people are held to.

[deleted]

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#597

Post by jodrellblank » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 8:20 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #445

jmagoon wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm...'colorblindness' by a privileged group is a refusal to acknowledge the real inadequacies between social groups. Basically, "I treat everyone the same--I don't see color" (or gender, or sexual orientation, etc.) is a luxury that only exists for some. For people discriminated against, they /have/ to see color, gender, etc., because it's a limiting condition of their social situation.

I see color (and gender, and sexual orientation, etc.). I just don't let them effect how I treat people. But it seems pretty clear that this is a standard only some people are held to.

But it should affect how you treat people.

Saying the same thing to everyone would only work in a society where everyone was actually equal. In our existing societies, men dominate and male voices dominate. Unless you take that into account, saying the same thing to everyone might well mean saying something defacto-white-male-whatever-biased to everyone. Which isn't equalitarian at all.

Which is how you get a conference with 80% men and 20% women, and making a dick joke made someone else uncomfortable - she didn't choose, apropos of nothing, to be upset at that comment - saying "I'd make the same dick joke with/to my female friends" is not an equalitarian way out.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#598

Post by johng » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 8:34 PM UTC

nashadelic wrote: post #344

ericabiz wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

> Was Adria's reaction, to this as an isolated event, out of hand? Yes. No. Someone said something sexist in public. She put it out on Twitter. If you don't like that. You better watch what you say in public. We should back up people who stand against discrimination and support them. SendGrid firing her basically says she shouldn't have stood up for herself. Which is pitiful.

Since when did telling a simple techie joke become sexist? And how did one individual telling another individual privately that joke become discrimination?

Eavesdrop much and then drop a nuke on the people your eavesdropping on? She got what she deserved. She tried to flex her e-peen to see how much clout she had online and that ended up biting her in the ass.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#599

Post by s_baby » Sat, Mar 23, 2013, 4:26 AM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #587

s_baby wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Heck, some prominent woman suffarage folks in the late 1800s/early 1900s were eugenics advocates (which is super messed up), but that doesn't negate the positive things woman's suffrage accomplished. This is still true today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly#Views_on_men >If you want to talk about the specific things you think that 3rd wavers are getting wrong about 2nd wave feminism, you'll have to be more sp…

> First and foremost is the double standard afforded to 2nd wave bigotry. The smallest sexist offense incites a twittersphere rabble. Where is the rabble against transphobia taught by 2nd wave professors? Where is the rabble against the blatant misandry? Where is the rabble against anglo-centrism? All I've ever seen is a token effort. If these 2 men deserve to be kicked out of the convention, fired, and shamed then t…

>Misandry isn't a real thing men as a whole suffer from.

Within the halls of gender studies it certainly is...

>As for gender studies, I don't know what you are even saying since I'm pretty sure bigots exist in every studied discipline and gender studies is not a bigoted discipline.

No other academic institution accepts bigot ideologies as an orthodoxy. There's something fundamentally wrong here.

>In what I have seen and read there is been a big increase in the criticism leveled at the big name feminist academics and writers for their moments and instances of bigotry.

I've yet to see any twitterstorm over the horrific transphobia being taught by countless 2nd wave professors. No threats of boycott, no petitions, nothing. Yet, when someone like Joe Rogan mentions transgendered people feminists are out for blood. I'm sorry but the criticism you speak of is a drop in the bucket.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#600

Post by shardling » Sat, Mar 23, 2013, 7:05 AM UTC

doktrin wrote: post #583

shardling wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are varying definitions of the word sexist that complicate the issue -- but here it doesn't matter! Because Adria didn't call them sexist, certainly not in the twitter or blog posts I've read. She just said it made her uncomfortable.

She made allegations of harassment and alluded to gender issues. Most people accept that "sexism" was at issue here, and she herself doesn't dispute this. There's no sense in nitpicking on minor semantics.

Ok, so tell that to the folk upthread who started using exactly that set of semantics as part of their attack on Adria. ("The joke was not sexist in any way".)