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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#591

Post by dinkumthinkum »

adriarichards wrote: post #27
mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

I think the basic problem here that you are a documented fraud. You claimed to be some kind of Joan of Arc "minus the visions." Honestly, it seems to be it is more like "plus greater delusions of grandeur." You seem to have jumped on this as a way to drive your popularity; you were just too short sighted to see the backlash, I suppose. Perhaps, you enjoy some of the backlash because it may allow you to pivot toward some other activist role. I just don't think you are, in any way, authentic about this incident or other incidents. My problem is there is a clear pattern and smugness about the way you project yourself. I don't think you speak for all women and I don't think women want you to speak for them. You would take any criticism as simple victim blaming and that is unfortunate because it can be difficult, rhetorically, to argue against. However, I think many people can see through this veneer. As well, it could be innocent but your blog URL is yet another a signal to me; I don't think you intend well for any of this. You are looking for any issue for which you can champion yourself as some sort of Betty Friedan; unfortunately, you are no Betty Friedan, Sandra Day O'Connor or any other great female leader.

Others are focusing on whether or not you can take a joke or if you should have discussed it with the people you publicly shamed instead. We know you weren't really offended, that wasn't the point. This was a prop for you. This is unfair to women that face will discrimination, prejudice, and so on that we should all denounce. This is just opportunism potentially gone awry.

I could applaud you for actually coming to HN and making a statement but what you wrote is just smug and serving.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#592

Post by dinkumthinkum »

sr3d wrote: post #545
adriarichards wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

You're one childish person. You should behave like a grown up, and learn to speak up correctly. Here in the US there's something called "Freedom of Speech" and if someone at a public event cannot make a private joke that somehow overheard by some crazy, cookoo person, then you got it all wrong. And you are deserved to be forked for being a nasty person. And no, your repos on Github (if you have any) are not even wort…

Far be from me to defend Adria Richards but "freedom of speech" means something different than what you think. The government cannot infringe on your right to express your opinion, etc. Also, the violent insinuation as no place on HN or anywhere.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#593

Post by DAnthropologist »

ScottBurson wrote: post #553
bobwaycott wrote: post #206

Seriously, Adria (and all of you who are defending her actions)--you got this one wrong; it was a false positive on your sexism scale. As a philosophical Marxist, I count myself among those who not only inherently support gender equality, but are from the thought tradition that started the damn movement. In graduate school, my thesis focused on the Southeast US from Reconstruction through the Civil Rights Act of 1964…

I had the same thought at first -- that "sexual" and "sexist" are not the same thing -- but on reflection I think that it misses the point. Making sexual jokes in mixed company consisting of your friends is not necessarily offensive -- that's up to the friends, and your may know them well enough to know they won't be offended. But in public, I think it's different. You don't know the people who will hear the joke, an…

Making sexual jokes in mixed company consisting of your friends is not necessarily offensive -- that's up to the friends, and your may know them well enough to know they won't be offended. But in public, I think it's different." There's nothing offensive about sex. But most apologists are hypocrites and liars and have hidden motives.

Secular humanists and people who are interested in human rights are offended by public and rude displays of religion, such as the Hijab which is worn by Muslims. Most Muslims will tell you publically that they were it for fashion, and all these other excuses. Talk to them in private, like the natural anthropologist that I am, and they will tell you that being covered up is a symbol of modesty and, among other things, that Western woman who don't cover themselves up are evil.

The public rhetoric versus the private agenda are always two different things for the Conservative and his radical feminist counterpart.

"To his credit, the guy was remorseful once confronted." It is a pathetic society if a person has to be "remorseful" for telling a joke. Comedians and jokesters were one of the groups that suffered under Nazi Germany (don't Godwin-bash me).

There should be no tolerance for intolerance.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#594

Post by oracuk »

sr3d wrote: post #545
adriarichards wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

You're one childish person. You should behave like a grown up, and learn to speak up correctly. Here in the US there's something called "Freedom of Speech" and if someone at a public event cannot make a private joke that somehow overheard by some crazy, cookoo person, then you got it all wrong. And you are deserved to be forked for being a nasty person. And no, your repos on Github (if you have any) are not even wort…

I am constantly surprised at the bipolar nature of HN. It ranges from intelligent and considered posts about technology to unpleasant playground posts relating to politics and especially to sexual politics.

I am usually able to sigh, roll my eye and close the browser tab but your comment 'deserved to be forked' demanded a response.

Your post wasn't intelligent, wasn't constructive and offended me.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#595

Post by bash2win »

zshprompt wrote: post #10

Its a tough call, but I will say that it is not clear who the bully is in this situation. If the comments were made directly at someone, I am sure all will agree that this is grounds for consequences. However is it really a "safe space" if people are shamed publicly for what someone finds offensive BEFORE the matter is brought up to STAFF? I mean the two dudes in the photo may have grounds to say that they are the on…

hypocrite! https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425

L2 take a joke

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#596

Post by chrisivens »

mnicole wrote: post #560
gutnor wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering aswell - around 2:00, there is a joke about dongle. I guess the interesting bit the parent wanted to highlight is that a similar joke to the one that offended Adria, was showed on public television.

Right, I was confused why he thought I would be offended by that when my point was that the joke was a non-issue. That sketch is fantastic and isn't new to me. What I find so silly about this whole thing - which is exactly what the skit helps imply - is that you can hardly even say the word dongle without laughing; you don't even need to know what it really is to see the low-hanging humor in it (no pun intended). It'…

Although I commented on the wrong part of the thread, my point was that if we are able to accept a sketch on tv mentioning a dongle in good humour, why is it a sackable offence within earshot of someone?

Granted it's toilet humour but who doesn't like that every now and again. Being a programmer, I'd love to have more women in my industry and indeed within my workplace. The problem has been exacerbated by Adria and her knee-jerk reaction to something that should have just been a quick snigger between the two involved and then move on.

If I felt I had to tip-toe around any female colleague for fear of being fired for something so innocuous, I think I would change career or work alone. I don't need that kind of attitude.

I accept every colleague as an equal and certainly I temper the things I say around some people but I never go out of my way to offend, it's simply not worth it or called for.

I guess I hope we all forget about this incident and try to move on and rebuild the damage this has caused. Bring on more women in tech.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#597

Post by Crake »

bobwaycott wrote: post #305
savagedm wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I am only a visitor from Reddit on this website and I will likely not post on here again, I felt compelled to make an account and reply to your post. You sir, win the internet award for 3-20-13 for your outstanding writing, cogent points, and social awareness. One does not often see this quality of writing and thoughts combined into a singular document on internet sites, and for making me think at the end "oh m…

Hey, thanks for the compliment and kind words. I appreciate that. However, I must emphatically and proudly express that I do not support the negation and devaluing of women's (as well as ethnic, [other] cultural, LGBT, etc.) rights by way of reactionary countering with a "men's rights" movement. One of the most pressing reasons is that such a movement would likely result in a majority of white, heterosexual male adhe…

"However, I must emphatically and proudly express that I do not support the negation and devaluing of women's (as well as ethnic, [other] cultural, LGBT, etc.) rights by way of reactionary countering with a "men's rights" movement."

As GLBT, I really have to politely disagree here. Trans men especially tend to take a lot of shit from women who think they've committed some sort of cardinal sin for being who they are (it's usually phrased as them trying to make some sort of male power grab, or whatever). Women should have rights, but men should have them too. That's what equality ought to entail. Currently, we've made some significant progress not just in recognizing the need for women's rights, but actively forcing a change in the status quo. It's still politically incorrect to even recognize that men are discriminated against in some areas, and that's really disheartening to me.

True gender equality would HELP the GLBT cause because we need lesbians to not take crap for not being feminine "enough" and gay men to not take crap for not being "masculine" enough. Sex discrimination against men is actually a huge issue, but it's so politically incorrect to address it. If you're a man, and GLBT, you can kind of get double whammied by it since you have to deal with the GLBT part and then also the discrimination against men when you're already severely disadvantaged. If you're a woman, you have a lot of social support dedicated to you (domestic violence shelters, lots of other assistance), at least compared to men.

I believe that women and men BOTH should have rights. I don't understand why this is such a problem with the majority of the feminist movement. (I have met some absolutely lovely and rational feminists, but most of them are over the age of 50. I'm not really sure what's happened to this generation of them, but for the most part, it's been really...not good.)

I also really hope that same-sex marriage will help the men's rights movement (as well as the women's rights movement!). As an egalitarian, I'm all for the courts coming to realize that brain breaking moment in a lesbian divorce where they can't just give the kids and all the money to the female, because there are two of them. Perhaps a concrete inability to rotely perform sex discrimination because there aren't different sexes to take up their traditional "roles" will force the legal system to look into itself and realize the magnitude of the discrimination against men that they've been perpetuating.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#598

Post by Crake »

ianschenck wrote: post #24

What just blows my mind, is that Adria keeps referring to this as an issue against females. The comment (as clarified by the terrible perpetrator elsewhere) was about a part of male physiology and not directed towards any person, male or female. She just keeps repeating how this is some sort of female issue. I frankly don't see the connection. I do see how some puritanical folks could be upset, because you know, sex…

"This isn't activism, this is emotional terrorism."

That's a great quote.

People like this woman make it harder for women to integrate with tech guys. :/

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#599

Post by Crake »

colabug wrote: post #31
ianschenck wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't see how "large dongle" is sexist. I'm glad you take the time to re-educate those around you. It's probably the hardest thing to do, but ultimately the best way forward for everyone. Maybe I'm overly optimistic on the ability of education though. What I find really suspect is her feeling like and calling herself a hero. Her reference to herself as "Joan of Arc". Also going public immediately. I have been…

It creates a sexualized environment, here's a good article: http://geekfeminism.org/2012/10/01/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-... It's hard to understand the "hero" feeling unless you've been quiet and avoided speaking out on similar (and often bigger) events. It feels good to stand up for your fellow females and community, even if you get negative public attention for it. I think more things big and small should be addres…

IMHO this is BS. I'm GLBT and I'm 100% cool with nice looking ladies on slides. People don't read me as heterosexual male (not even close), but just because I'm not one, doesn't mean that I can't have the same interests. I feel sort of invisible when people forward these arguments, because it really is actually possible for people other than men to like ladies. (and vice versa, with ladies being not the only persons to like men)

Admittedly, you don't want to actually show porn or something. That'd be unprofessional. But I don't think attraction to ladies (which is probably a majority interest in the predominantly male tech crowd) ought to be some sort of heavily taboo subject just to protect female feelings. Tech people also tend to like things like video games and comics, should we not mention those either? There are plenty of women who like those things, even if they're traditionally a "male" hobby.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#600

Post by CRConrad »

ISL wrote: post #339
uwotm8 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She smiled at you as she took the photo, gave you no warning? No, don't apologize. She's a total bitch. A cis-scum Jewish-Nigger-Feminist Bitch. I'm on my way right now to her place to slit her. >1043 Valencia St, Apt 5 San Francisco, CA 94110-2478 >(415)-409-9557 >415 is San Francisco.

Does HN have a 'Flag Death Threat' tickbox? It would be appropriate to submit the poster's contact information to the San Francisco police, and perhaps the FBI. In the meantime, please flag the parent's post into oblivion. To do so, click 'reply' to the parent's post. Above the text entry field is a link that says 'flag'.

Death Threat?!? Doesn't "you are a doormat" just mean "you are letting yourself get trampled upon"?

Calling that a "death threat" looks an over-reaction on a par with Ms Richards' original one to me.

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