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Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

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Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#591

Post by red-iron-pine »

the_gastropod wrote: post #573
threethirtytwo wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

... Did you just suggest gp is "worse than Hitler" for suggesting Elon Musk, a man who's very publicly called empathy a "fundamental weakness" and "threat to Western Civilization", a sociopath? And you went on to compare the powerless women tried for witchcraft to the richest man in the history of the planet? Please go touch grass, my dude.

don't forget the literal, repeated roman salutes

comparisons to nazi leaders may be apt, because he is a business leader, and a nazi

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#592

Post by awesome_dude »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #569
bambax wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unfamiliar with the US legal system but do they really need a jury and a trial to determine whether the claims are barred by the statute of limitations? Couldn't this be decided by a judge before trial?

I'll piggyback and I'll ask a hypothetical question: imagine a scenario where there's a jury out there and the lawyers proved something almost perfectly, as perfect as something proven by lawyers can get. Now jury goes to deliberate/discuss and for some reason unanimously decides to rule in a way that goes totally against that proof provided - for any reason (maybe just for the kicks, ignore that; because I guess it…

I think that there have been such instances - (I can only speculate, but I think that) the judge can rule a mistrial, or it can be heard on appeal.

Ah google to the rescue:

> In the U.S., a jury’s factual findings can only be challenged post-trial if an appellate court or trial judge determines that no reasonable jury could have reached that verdict based on the evidence.

And

Civil Cases - (Judgment as a Matter of Law / JNOV): Governed by Rule 50 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, a judge can overturn a jury’s factual finding if the evidence is legally insufficient to support it.

Criminal Cases - (Insufficiency of the Evidence): Under the Fifth Amendment's Double Jeopardy clause, an acquittal cannot be appealed or overturned. However, after a guilty verdict, a defendant can file a motion challenging the evidence, asserting that the facts do not support the conviction

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#593

Post by awesome_dude »

billti wrote: post #476
rubyn00bie wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having approximately $44 billion in cash on hand is not a massive cash reserve for any company with the market cap of Tesla ($1.3 trillion). Even less so when you realize how capital intensive its current car and non-existent robot business is… The entire EV market is risky right now for margin compression as Chinese EV manufacturers are really pulling ahead. It’s pretty wild to see just how far they’ve progressed wh…

That's why I think the Optimus thing might make sense from a 'market cap' perspective. Tesla is great at innovation and ramping global manufacturing for new tech. Ten years ago, that was EVs. But now EVs are becoming a commodity and every other car company is catching up. I do think 'self driving' is still their 'moat' when it comes to EVs. I use it every day, and nothing else comes close. But other than that, buildi…

> Ten years ago, that was EVs. But now EVs are becoming a commodity and every other car company is catching up.

Kind of yes, the competition, especially from China, is catching up, and exceeding Tesla's offers.

Kind of no - EVs were around for a very long time before Tesla, Tesla's sales pitch (at one point) was that it was a software company not a car company.

On that front - almost every vehicle manufacturer has caught up, and Tesla is still stuck /promising/ a self driving car, but still not delivering.

The Twitter acquisition is widely seen as the marking point where Musk lost his appeal - something that was not smart because, coupled with his foray into politics was an attack on his core market - middle class left of centre people who were buying for the environment.. etc

He poisoned his brand, and Tesla's too (because the two brands, his and Tesla's, were so intertwined)

He lost the impetus in European markets, leaving a dying (for him) US market, and Asia (which is largely interested in Chinese made vehicles).

My Anecdata: In Australia, where I am, it used to be Tesla's were fairly common, now, I think I've seen two in the last week, compared to maybe a dozen BYD (and I am in a middle class suburb)

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#594

Post by awesome_dude »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #491
lotsofpulp wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s pretty wild to see just how far they’ve progressed while the west mostly does nothing. The “west” came up with Tesla and Rivian, and their cars are on the road. And the US tariffed chinese EVs. What else can be done to combat China’s lower priced labor and possibly more lax environmental regulations?

The west needs to combat it by using subsidies and regulations to “spray and pray,” to a large degree. Just as China has… The problem with the occident, at the moment, is that corporations use the incentives to raise margins and not to innovate. In the US at least we’re gearing up for massive failure in the automotive industry solely because we’re avoiding competition. Yes, there will be margin compression, but witho…

> The west needs to combat it by using subsidies and regulations

> In the US at least we’re gearing up for massive failure in the automotive industry solely because we’re avoiding competition

Uhhh - you want to prevent competition by using subsidies and regulations, but then complain the US companies are not competitive because they avoid competition?

The US vehicle manufacturers have been here multiple times - VW, Japanese "compacts", and now Chinese EVs

The Germans were competing on quality and fuel consumption.

The Japanese were competing on quality and price, they started out naff, and became gold standard, whilst US manufacturers were stuck delivering low rate products.

The Koreans followed the same playbook.

And, now, the Chinese are doing it again, following the Japanese playbook - offering better and better quality at a lower price.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#595

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

ben_w wrote: post #539
sumeno wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has a higher body count than any serial killer who has ever lived with DOGE alone. He may or may not be clinically diagnosable, but he's a monster either way

While I share your opinion on his character, the first part of what you say is also true for almost everyone who wielded the kinds and scales power that was given to him via DOGE: Every battleship is a hospital not built, etc.

This is a false equivalency, and it minimizes the carelessness and maliciousness of how DOGE operated.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#596

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #557
Angostura wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right. Sociopath is probably a better fit.

[flagged]

> Here's a test: Given the opportunity to kill Elon, you probably would. Given that you think Elon is a sociopath or evil incarnate.

I'm generally against the death penalty. I'd be fine with just stripping him of his wealth and locking him in prison for the rest of his life. He doesn't need to die, but it would be good to minimize/eliminate his influence on the world.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#597

Post by awesome_dude »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #519
rubyn00bie wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The west needs to combat it by using subsidies and regulations to “spray and pray,” to a large degree. Just as China has… The problem with the occident, at the moment, is that corporations use the incentives to raise margins and not to innovate. In the US at least we’re gearing up for massive failure in the automotive industry solely because we’re avoiding competition. Yes, there will be margin compression, but witho…

> And all that says nothing of the fact cheap labor alone doesn’t make a better car. But the fact China can both make a better car (EV) and with lower labor costs really shows how dependent US automakers are on market inefficiencies. I don’t understand this. Why would COGS impact quality? Are Chinese people inherently inferior “Western” people? The market inefficiency is partly the difference in price of labor, which…

I looked it up, and the key thing in favour of companies like BYD over the US companies - isn't (just) cheap labour - it's vertical integration.

BYD owns the mines, the batteries, the cars, the USA doesn't have that available, and are having to force other countries to provide their lithium/rare earth deposits to US companies in order to try and become competitive.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#598

Post by trainfromkansas »

j16sdiz wrote: post #581
trainfromkansas wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Juries are the "finders of fact". That's the phrase often used anyway.

How Jury in USA work is: Judge ask a question, Jury tell the count what they found the "fact" is, based on what is presented in court. They just can't "found" something when they are not asked. If you tell the count you found something because you saw something outside the court, that would consider invalid.

Practically speaking, since the jury is composed of multiple individuals, they're set up to express their "findings" via a strictly parameterized form where they check boxes or give numerical inputs.

In its more colloquial sense, I can see why you prefer to call that "answering" questions rather than "finding" facts.

However, it's silly to quibble over the parent thread's author's usage of "found" when it's the dominant phrasing used in the legal system.

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#599

Post by stickfigure »

billti wrote: post #476
rubyn00bie wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having approximately $44 billion in cash on hand is not a massive cash reserve for any company with the market cap of Tesla ($1.3 trillion). Even less so when you realize how capital intensive its current car and non-existent robot business is… The entire EV market is risky right now for margin compression as Chinese EV manufacturers are really pulling ahead. It’s pretty wild to see just how far they’ve progressed wh…

That's why I think the Optimus thing might make sense from a 'market cap' perspective. Tesla is great at innovation and ramping global manufacturing for new tech. Ten years ago, that was EVs. But now EVs are becoming a commodity and every other car company is catching up. I do think 'self driving' is still their 'moat' when it comes to EVs. I use it every day, and nothing else comes close. But other than that, buildi…

When Tesla was overpromising self-driving cars, the thing they sold was still a pretty nice car. Even without the magical features, customers were still satisfied with the product.

Now imagine you're selling robots. If the robot "disengages" and breaks 10% of your plates while emptying the dishwasher, you're going to be pissed. There's no fallback to manual mode. It has to work 100% of the time out the gate.

Based on past history, I don't think Tesla has an engineering culture capable of hitting a home run with this kind of frontier technology out of the gate. So they either delay it until it's ready or they launch it prematurely, in which case everyone mocks it and the dream crashes (along with the stock price).

Re: Elon Musk has lost his lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI

#600

Post by ryandrake »

Traster wrote: post #515
londons_explore wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lawyer himself is guaranteed another 6 months of lucrative work of they appeal... Whereas no appeal is effectively him getting fired.

Is this the right view? I would imagine Elon Musk has essentially infinite demand for lawyers. The choice for the lawyers is probably work on this absolutely dead case where all the facts are not just against them, but highly embarrassing for their principal, or work on some other case where there would be perks like having the possibility of winning the case. I'm quite certain highly trained, highly successful, expe…

I think it’s just that you can make an entire career (and a shitload of money) by simply being in Musk’s (and other rich people’s) orbit. From handling his lawsuits all the way down to cooking his food. He is an infinite River of money and you just dip your spoon in a little.
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