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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#591

Post by throwaway2037 »

abcd_f wrote: post #586
hamdingers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

> can't impact your driving privilege Unlike improper parking, running red lights should impact said privilege as potential consequences are way more serious.

You raise an interesting counterpoint. What if the red light violation ticket issued by an automated camera remains a civil penalty, but it is very large, like 1,500 USD? At some point, the number gets so high that it effectively impacts your driving privilege. Of course, I would expect these new civil penalties to be challenged in court as being "dual purpose".

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#592

Post by danesparza »

vkou wrote: post #270
danesparza wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance." Wow! So if you have enough money, it's cool to run as many red lights as you want?

What's the alternative? No rules at all? Immediate death penalty for anyone who runs a red in front of a cop? Seizing and auctioning off the car? Deporting the offender to Texas? Something else? Revoke their license?

Wow dude. Calm down.

"What's the alternative?". Maybe a more thoughtful law.

Perhaps a scaled fine system? (The second fine costs 2x the first fine, the third fine costs 3x the first fine, etc)

Maybe after 10 fines you get a point on your license?

Maybe the state has to prove it was you driving so they setup more (but discreet) cameras at intersections?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#593

Post by [deleted] »

pfdietz wrote: post #275
danesparza wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance." Wow! So if you have enough money, it's cool to run as many red lights as you want?

Constitutional protections aren't trumped by mere issues of governmental convenience.

[deleted]

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#594

Post by danesparza »

hamdingers wrote: post #273
danesparza wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance." Wow! So if you have enough money, it's cool to run as many red lights as you want?

I understand your criticism and it is fair, but this represents and improvement over the current state which is effectively no enforcement. They're speed cameras, not red light cameras, and the revenues go towards street improvements to reduce speeding. So you could speed as much as you can afford, but eventually you'll have bought enough traffic calming infrastructure it'll be prohibitively difficult to keep getting…

"They're speed cameras, not red light cameras..."

Thank you for this clarification and the additional detail you provide!

It sounds like the money collected by fines has to go to more traffic calming infrastructure - which is a pretty big deal.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#595

Post by Orygin »

presentation wrote: post #582
Orygin wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except cameras don't increase safety. You say it yourself that everyone just speeds up after the camera. Getting a ticket also does nothing to prevent you from speeding in the first place (the ticket does not arrive to you instantly, you're still speeding on the road). Road safety is an infrastructure problem, but it is always easier and cheaper to just put a camera and collect money. While designing roads that you c…

One time when I was living in Shanghai, I accidentally took the train to the wrong airport and had to take a cab to the other one. The cabbie was driving on the highway right at the speed limit, and I was worried I wouldn’t make my flight. I asked him if he could rush a bit, but he replied that he would not speed because 100% he would get a ticket. It only doesn’t work if the system is half assed. But I agree that in…

It is effective if there are cameras everywhere, meaning you are tracked and spied on everywhere you go.

I'd prefer we spend a bit more on the road infrastructure than live in a surveillance hell.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#596

Post by AyyEye »

cromka wrote: post #10
embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

Not the same. They know the car was yours so, by extension, you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment. If it wasn't you driving, you know who. An illegal activity was committed using your tool and you know who did it. They have every right to question you. If you do not know, you testify as such, but then again you need to plausibly explain why was someone operating your car while you were not aware…

> If it wasn't you driving, you know who

This is... Absolutely not true.

I had some family friends and their two (adult) sons come in (from Poland!) and loaned them my car for a week while they were driving around the states. They were all licensed and it could have been any one of them driving at any given point.

I've even been on road trips in my own car where figuring out the question "we got a ticket from nowhere, montana. Who was driving when we went through there?" Would be met with "that was over a month ago, I don't even know where that is much less who was driving then."

My husband and I and our kid take each other's cars for various reasons and trying to figure out who was driving on any given hour of the day over a month later when the ticket arrives in the mail would be an impossible task.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#597

Post by throwaway2037 »

klardotsh wrote: post #554
1123581321 wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most US cities have lower posted speeds than average drivers’ perception of safe speeds.

Oftentimes comically lower. I remember in Chicago the interstates having posted speed limits of 45mph... the average flow of traffic outside of rush hour was easily north of 70mph. Looking even at normal arterial streets, many streets in Seattle are marked 25, but you'd be hard-pressed to find even a cop going under 30 most of the time. I truly don't understand US road design. The construction of the road and the pos…

    > I remember in Chicago the interstates having posted speed limits of 45mph... the average flow of traffic outside of rush hour was easily north of 70mph.
This comment seems a bit odd to me. I Google about it and learned (from various sources):

    > 45 mph (72 km/h) in downtown Chicago, where all the major interstates merge
This excludes construction or work zones.

That seems pretty reasonable. I've seen a few places in the US where several major interstates merge and the post speed limit is quite low -- 45-55 mph.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#598

Post by globular-toast »

In the UK this is simple. If you want to operate a motorvehicle on the public highway you need to register it. Part of this is that the vehicle will have a registered keeper: the person responsible for knowing who is driving the vehicle and when. If you want to operate a vehicle on the road, you must accept the responsibility that comes with being a registered keeper.

More and more I'm seeing people taking privileges wherever they can but completely shirking responsibility. There is a name for a person who pushes the boundaries but takes no responsibility: a child. How do we get people to understand that someone needs to take responsibility in this world? If it's not the adults then who will?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#599

Post by wat10000 »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #445
wat10000 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative would be an actual criminal record because you misjudged a yellow light.

If the yellows are set correctly there should be very little of misjudging. You see yellow, if you can reasonably stop you do so. Judging only is an issue when you're going below the speed limit.

“If you can reasonably stop” needs to be judged and can be misjudged.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#600

Post by trogdor »

dragonwriter wrote: post #552
unselect5917 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like paltry sums like this. $300 is a significant financial impact to someone who's barely making ends meet, and absolutely nothing at all to a billionaire. "If the penalty for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the poor." Make it a tiny % of net worth, with a modest minimum and watch EVERYONE obey. Or at least something meaningful to everyone, or don't make it a fine. Use some other carrot or s…

> I don't like paltry sums like this. $300 is a significant financial impact to someone who's barely making ends meet, and absolutely nothing at all to a billionaire. One thing about daycares is that you will essentially never find "someone who's barely making ends meet" and "a billionaire" with kids at the same daycare, so a surcharge for out-of-normal-expectations service does not need to be designed to address bot…

> In fact, you'll probably not find a billionaire with kids at any daycare

I grew up with the children of a multi-billionaire. His kids went to the same daycare as I did, and it wasn’t particularly fancy.

Some ultra-wealthy people live fairly normal-looking lives.

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