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The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

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Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to do this algebra per state and locale, and your reward is higher advertised prices than the shop next door. I think you both underestimate the problem and overestimate everyone involved in retail, especially the consumer. I’m not saying it’s hard, I’m saying there is enough friction where it’s just not going to happen without legislation mandating it.

> it’s just not going to happen without legislation mandating it. Obviously, and I don't think anyone said otherwise.

Well, this is happening without legislation mandating it (that’s kinda the problem, our federal legislature doesn’t legislate much and is being largely ignored)

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where's the law preventing stores from imposing an accounting fee for multi-item purchases, conveniently totaling a few cents? Where’s the law preventing someone from doing this right now? I don’t think this cynicism is justified. Similarly, if places are willing to price stuff at $1.03 for the few extra cents they’ll collect some of the time, then they can just raise prices on 99c items right now to $1 to collect…

> Where’s the law preventing someone from doing this right now? I don’t think this cynicism is justified. You don't think businesses take advantage of situations for more profit? Take this year's tariffs as an example. As you may've heard, UPS is charging customs brokerage fees of dozens or hundreds of dollars on top of the actual tariff payment; identical shipments sent via FedEx or DHL are only charged a few dollar…

>You don't think businesses take advantage of situations for more profit?

That's not the point. Businesses are obviously happy to raise prices under the confusion of other changes, but I find it very hard to believe "accounting fees" are a plausible way to do so. People know that the register machine can do the calculations easily - it already does so. And there is a good reason for businesses not to introduce such fees, because they are directly visible to the consumer who is going to complain and shop elsewhere.

The UPS example is apples to oranges. Tariffs are poorly understood, and consumers rarely shop around for shipping - they tend to take the service given by the merchant. The agency people will show on 2 random cents on every shop is way higher.

>It's not super relevant to the discussion of whether rounding can/will be gamed.

It's very relevant. How are consumers going to react to a price like $1.03? Especially since that's almost certainly something that would previously have been priced at $1.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#593
post #252

I'd say screw it, get rid of nickles and dimes as well. Quarters can stay, for now. It's a complete waste of money and time continuing to mint such low-value currency. It can't be used for just about anything. Unfortunately, I do see the problem with part of this. For a handful of items where it does matter, it will force people to use cards more if they want to avoid rounding. And the card providers already have a c…

I know you're referencing more than pennies, but to speak to pennies, I find the current rounding noise in the US to be weird. Likely, it's just more of the media, talking heads, and youtube personalities trying to turn a nothing into something, story. Back when we did it in Canada, I don't recall a single person I knew concerned about penny rounding. Everyone was sick of pennies. No one cared. Everyone was happy. An…

Watch 'Pop' (Malcome McDowell) in Son of a Critch :) . I don't remember the episode/season.... where he goes on and on about some $1 bill that will be decommissioned and goes to the bank to get some...

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#594
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sales taxes as they are known in the US were largely introduced in the 20th century. The half-penny was phased out in the mid-19th century. The legal structure of sales taxes in the US present some unique challenges that simply don't exist as problems that needed to be solved in other countries. These problems can't be legislated away because the authority to do so is highly decentralized. Pretending that these probl…

Can you explain further? Canada has sales tax and successfully phased out the penny.

Sales taxes in the US are truly and insanely decentralized.

The US has thousands of independent sales tax authorities with their own laws and regulations about how sales tax must be computed and displayed. These jurisdictions overlap, the sales tax you pay may be the aggregate of multiple different sales tax authorities between which there is no coordination.

Rounding to the nearest 5c or whatever creates a situation where in many locales it would be impossible to comply with sales tax and pricing laws because different tax authorities requiring mutually exclusive ways of making this change.

This creates an obvious need to change the law. This is not trivial because they are often written into statute or constrained by constitutional processes. It requires thousands of jurisdictions to all change their laws at the same time in the same way, which is effectively impossible. Even if it weren't the process would require several years. In many locales it requires a democratic vote -- what if the voters vote against it? Courts aren't going to let the government ignore these requirements because it would be inconvenient.

It really is a "herding cats" problem. There are many other things in the US that effectively can't be changed because there is no central authority to overcome coordination problems by fiat. Even at the level of all 50 States, resolving these kinds of coordination problems typically takes several decades.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#595

I'd say screw it, get rid of nickles and dimes as well. Quarters can stay, for now. It's a complete waste of money and time continuing to mint such low-value currency. It can't be used for just about anything. Unfortunately, I do see the problem with part of this. For a handful of items where it does matter, it will force people to use cards more if they want to avoid rounding. And the card providers already have a c…

Also, we can store 1/4 exactly in binary, but not 1/100, 1/20, or 1/10. So that solves another problem.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the law is slow to change or there are no available pennies, the stores can adjust the prices to match the expected rounding of prices. I can't imagine someone being prosecuted from rounding a penny but it's a quick and easy way to avoid any doubt.

> I can't imagine someone being prosecuted from rounding a penny Under this executive, I wouldn't be so sure. If a grocery chain starts deviating from the law, then the government can use it against them to further a political agenda like we've seen with Eric Adams for example.

The easy thing for stores to do then seems to be apply the cash rounding to EBT and card transactions.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#597

I'd say screw it, get rid of nickles and dimes as well. Quarters can stay, for now. It's a complete waste of money and time continuing to mint such low-value currency. It can't be used for just about anything. Unfortunately, I do see the problem with part of this. For a handful of items where it does matter, it will force people to use cards more if they want to avoid rounding. And the card providers already have a c…

> Quarters can stay, for now.

I'd say just drop the second decimal place and have dimes and half-dollar coins.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er... So just adjust prices to whole multiples of 5 cents? Helps math-challenged cashiers too...

Prices in the US are not tax-inclusive, so the effect of sales tax ruins that plan.

So they just make the price with tax a multiple of 5 cent and still show the price without.

Re: The last-ever penny will be minted today in Philadelphia

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wouldn't apply if everyone included tax in their prices. In this case, the item would just be $1.10. If the business really thinks they will lose money by pricing over a dollar, then yes, they would have to take that hit. But they are already taking that hit if the "real value" is $1.02 for example. It's just a price/demand curve. They would simply have to optimize it differently.

There's a reason everything is priced at some variety of .99, 99.99, 999.99, etc: it sells better than 1.08, 108, 1080, etc. My point is getting the consumer to eat the sales tax on top is just a wise trick by US businesses, and nothing to do with complexity.

That's been debunked. Every consumer just auto-rounds in their head. Companies keep doing it because of tradition more than anything else.

It is a wise trick, and exactly the job of government -- to prevent the public from getting tricked by businesses.

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