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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#591

Post by mystraline »

palata wrote: post #557
mystraline wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then from a picture, tell me what the exact age of the nude person is. Again, we need to know the exact year and day. 17y364d is illegal but 18y is legal.

Not sure how this answers my comment above.

It points out the failing of comparing an action (killing someone without cause), and passively receiving a picture.

That picture does NOT have enough information to determine if its legal or not. And even as simple as 1 day can be the difference between legal and not.

And of course, is also thethe hypocrisy of sex being legal at 16, but pictures are 'child porn', when they are demonstrably NOT children.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#592

Post by prmoustache »

palata wrote: post #426
prmoustache wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most victims of child abuse know their aggressor because it is part of their social circle: dad, mother, uncle, brother, sport coach or a friend of the parents/sibling.

Most, not all of them. Or are you saying that we should not care about the others?

Are you saying that scanning every single communication the only way?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#593

Post by porridgeraisin »

palata wrote: post #393
jMyles wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, maybe the word "plausible" is doing too much work in my statement. Most abuse happens from people known to the child, and of that portion, most are family members. It seems like there is sufficient opportunity in-person comms to route around this limitation. Moreover, even the communications that do happen online can still easily happen through encrypted media; presumably the perpetrators will simply move to ot…

> Most abuse happens from people known to the child Sure, but it means that at least some happen from people unknown to the child. If ChatControl doesn't cause any problem but helps preventing those abuses, then it's worth it. The question is: what are the problems caused by ChatControl? Saying "only a minority of children get abused this way, so it's not worth it" won't go far, IMO. It's not a valid argument against…

Wow, the only prosaic take in this entire dumpster-fire of a thread.

Can you point me to the doc that says all this?

Admittedly I didn't yet bother looking for the official ruling since those are massive, and media sites were just politicising it.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#594

Post by matthewdgreen »

nikkwong wrote: post #199
matthewdgreen wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements Imagine a future where aliens invade, and all of our civil rights have to be suspended in order for society to be re-focused on fighting an existential war against the invaders. I suppose this sci-fi hypothetical could happen and if it did happen then the sacrifice might even be necessary. But it's not happening n…

I don’t know if it’s complete fearmongering to imagine a scenario in the future where chemical or biological weapons are easier to manufacture and therefore execute attacks. Hundreds of people died in Europe last year due to terrorist attacks, and compared to where our species will eventually be, many of the technologies used in these attacks are still in their infancy. The world may evolve, but the scriptures that e…

When any of that happens I'm happy to have this debate. I will be very sad that we have to live in that world, but I'll take it if the alternative is "we all die." But building a surveillance state today in an environment where violent crime seems to be at historic lows across the first world, that just seems incredibly dumb. Let's not.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#595

Post by amarant »

palata wrote: post #553
amarant wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make a silly analogy: A stone in go has 4 liberties. Take away all four and the stone dies. Chat control takes away one liberty from democracy. Ask any half decent go player what will happen to that stone if we just ignore the attack upon it?

If they suspect that you own CSAM material, law enforcement will check your devices. Actually if they have convincing arguments, the way they get access to your devices may touch your physical integrity. You don't have the liberty to avoid that, today. By design. My point being that if one could prove that the ChatControl detection is only running locally and that it is only reporting what's acceptable to report, the…

But chat control will have "master keys"to all communication.

That key will leak eventually, it's too juicy a target.

You describe chat control as if it's just an AI csam scanner that runs locally on your phone, like what apple did recently-ish.

Chat control is so much more than that, and so much worse

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#596

Post by rpdillon »

palata wrote: post #343
blindriver wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Distribute” not “contact”. Unless you want to scan all chat messages for potential signs of adults engaging in grooming of children too? Talk about a slippery slope, you’re basically making my point.

> Unless you want to scan all chat messages for potential signs of adults engaging in grooming of children too? Well, the point is to scan all messages, period. And then to detect those that come from predators, not adults. How often do parents convince their children to send... revealing pictures? Or to meet them somewhere? How often do parents introduce themselves to their children in messages? You can't seriously…

Dude, you're basically arguing that we should bring the equivalent of App Store review process to people's chat history. You know that automated and human reviews are an absolute nightmare for people to navigate and errors are made constantly and people complain about it loudly. And the plan here is to escalate that not to just whether or not your app gets published, but whether or not you can remain out of jail.

Seems like a terrible idea.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#597

Post by palata »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #593
palata wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most abuse happens from people known to the child Sure, but it means that at least some happen from people unknown to the child. If ChatControl doesn't cause any problem but helps preventing those abuses, then it's worth it. The question is: what are the problems caused by ChatControl? Saying "only a minority of children get abused this way, so it's not worth it" won't go far, IMO. It's not a valid argument against…

Wow, the only prosaic take in this entire dumpster-fire of a thread. Can you point me to the doc that says all this? Admittedly I didn't yet bother looking for the official ruling since those are massive, and media sites were just politicising it.

I don't have a doc to point to, it's just my understanding of ChatControl :-).

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#598

Post by palata »

Levitz wrote: post #590
palata wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privacy from who? Law enforcement has been leveraging that forever. But ChatControl won't prevent the encryption for anyone who is not the receiver of the reports. And the receiver is the equivalent of "law enforcement", right?

>Privacy from who? Law enforcement has been leveraging that forever. Not without legal proceedings. The population would have been absolutely outraged if the government just decided to read all of their mail one random day in the 90s. There's a reason the whole idea was supposed to be a conspiracy theory, the population literally didn't believe something like that could happen.

I think that there is a big difference, for the population, between "somebody is reading and keeping a copy of all your mail" and "Some algorithm looks for illegal material locally on your phone. If you don't have illegal material, it won't do anything".

Nobody would want to carry a microphone recording them 24/7 and storing everything on a server, but everybody is fine with TooBigTech simply promising that they don't store the data.

We have to accept that people are fine with the idea. The problem (both with the connected mic and ChatControl, btw) is that it can be abused. That's the problem. Again: we have to convince people that it is at risk of being abused. Not that they should be outraged. They just are not.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#599

Post by palata »

amarant wrote: post #595
palata wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they suspect that you own CSAM material, law enforcement will check your devices. Actually if they have convincing arguments, the way they get access to your devices may touch your physical integrity. You don't have the liberty to avoid that, today. By design. My point being that if one could prove that the ChatControl detection is only running locally and that it is only reporting what's acceptable to report, the…

But chat control will have "master keys"to all communication. That key will leak eventually, it's too juicy a target. You describe chat control as if it's just an AI csam scanner that runs locally on your phone, like what apple did recently-ish. Chat control is so much more than that, and so much worse

> But chat control will have "master keys"to all communication.

That's not my understanding. My understanding is that ChatControl will run client-side scanning and report what is deemed illegal.

This is not a master key to all communications.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#600

Post by palata »

mystraline wrote: post #591
palata wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how this answers my comment above.

It points out the failing of comparing an action (killing someone without cause), and passively receiving a picture. That picture does NOT have enough information to determine if its legal or not. And even as simple as 1 day can be the difference between legal and not. And of course, is also thethe hypocrisy of sex being legal at 16, but pictures are 'child porn', when they are demonstrably NOT children.

Well, there are MOST DEFINITELY images that are, UNAMBIGUOUSLY, VERY illegal. It is not hypocritical to say that detecting such images one a device means that someone should look into it, because something got VERY WRONG there.

So yes, MANY pictures already exist that do have more than enough information to determine that they are VERY ILLEGAL.

If you can't apprehend that, I don't know what to tell you.

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