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Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

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Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#591

Post by graemep »

roenxi wrote: post #566
frabcus wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The example usually given by pro-sanctions campaigners is South Africa ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_sanctions_during... )

Do we have anything this century? And frankly; we're talking about something kicked off by 60s US and UK, that map in that wiki article could be mistaken for one of the British Empire. Nothing's impossible but it'll take more than a wiki article to give me confidence that sanctions were the primary political force operative here or that the apartheid system was actually the thing at issue. I would chalk it up as unus…

> that map in that wiki article could be mistaken for one of the British Empire.

Including most of western Europe, Japan, the whole of the US (including Alaska) etc?

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#593

Post by figmert »

1234letshaveatw wrote: post #578
tuveson wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But even in the US, no one I've ever had the option to vote for (and who had even a remote chance of winning) would ever consider lifting these sanctions. So I am similarly powerless to change this situation. Not saying Obama’s foreign policy was perfect, but he did do the Iran nuclear deal which lifted some sanctions, and started the process of normalizing relations with Cuba. Like so many other things, these were…

[flagged]

Every international body had checked, and confirmed that Iran had no intention of building nuclear weapons. Even to this day. Even after what Israel and US did.

Netanyahu has been saying Iran in minutes away from building nuclear weapons since early 2010s.

Never mind those facts. Let's say they are building weapons. What gives the US the right to build enough nuclear weapons that they could destroy the world multiple times over, but Iran cannot? Why is the US funding terrorist groups, but Iran cannot? Just cos they're the big bad boogeyman? Don't you think it'd be better to normalise relationship with them so that they become friendly? So that even if they are building weapons, they wouldn't use it against us because they're allies?

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#594

Post by cess11 »

miningape wrote: post #557
cess11 wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "cooperate" carries a lot of weight in your reasoning. Could you give some examples? One could also flip your argument and consider the many decades of US narcoterrorism, regime change operations and so on and the rather long line of failed states in its wake, and draw the conclusion that we ought to actually not submit to this 'world power' regardless of whether it 'dresses itself up' to be 'cooperative' wh…

For example, not respecting copyright laws (China), not participating in other sanctions (India), or intentionally destroying diplomatic relations (South Africa). It could also be more serious things like declarations of war, or long standing bad relations. > One could also flip your argument and consider the many decades of US narcoterrorism I'd agree with you here, I'm speaking purely of diplomatic / trade related…

China is a member of WIPO, so that's mostly something the US does to trample on the UN. Why should India change its policies around sanctions and start implementing them because the US thinks they should, instead of leveraging the UN sanctions system, which India adheres to? Same thing there. The US dislikes diplomacy and international institutions that treat states as equals, and prefers overtly or covertly hostile unilateral actions.

I'm not sure what you mean by the South Africa example.

I'm also not so sure it's a tricky line. Civil disobedience is something everyone should consider as a means of political action.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#595

Post by mgax »

chabska wrote: post #221
adastra22 wrote: post #20

OP, some context from the other side might be helpful. Yes, there are fines for American companies if they do business with Iranians. That's how sanctions work as I'm sure you're aware. But the story doesn't stop there. If an American finds out they are transacting with a sanctioned individual, or citizens of a sanctioned country like Iran or North Korea, the stakes go up: $1M USD fine and up to 20 years in federal p…

> Nobody should be expected to take that risk I've seen this sentiment so many times from westerners. You all say this, and yet at the same time you levy economic sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea, with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. Their authoritarian militaristic government that doesn't care for human rights…

For fun?

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#596

Post by lazide »

542354234235 wrote: post #522
lazide wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia lost (in a real sense), when their blitzkrieg of Kiev failed. From that point on, it’s just how much they turn the crank on the meat grinder that is trench warfare. It’s the nature of the bet that is inherent in Blitzkrieg. Ukraine/Russia is about who is going to lose more after that, not who can win. No one can win anymore. Sanctions or lack thereof definitely impacts quality of life, but Putin put everything…

Russia has had to sell oil at a steep discount, which has cut into their revenue significantly. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been frozen/seized that can't be used to fund the war effort. Modern war is not just "beans and bullets”, and Russia pays upwards of 10 times the price for key components it needs for missiles, aviation, UAVs, tanks, artillery, air defense, etc. as well as quality manufacturing equipmen…

I’m not saying the sanctions haven’t hurt, rather that when the war was at its decisive point (the first few days) they did not exist/were immaterial. Now they’re just doing more damage in an already damaging (and unwinnable) situation.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#598

Post by somenameforme »

simianparrot wrote: post #546
coldtea wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the justification that by making their citizens lives horrific, you encourage them to rise against their government. That's the PR justification. The real one is "to hurt the countries and make them do as we say" and "because we can".

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I don't think this needs much "teaching." We overthrew their secular democracy in 1953 and installed an extremely unpopular autocratic monarchy. They were then overthrown in a "real" revolution in 1979 which is when they became an Islamic Republic. Since then we've spent decades trying to overthrow their government, actively assassinating their leaders and scientists, bombing their country, providing material support to Israel to regularly go batshit over there and so on. And I haven't even touched on sanctions. We're not exactly coming off as the good guys here.

Beyond this, it's a very poor analogy because the overwhelming majority of sanctions would be a war crime as they intentionally target civilians with no military value.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#599

Post by simianparrot »

bichiliad wrote: post #583
simianparrot wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is extremely reductive. Just as OP doesn’t support Russia in its war against Ukraine, and just as many US citizens don’t support America’s actions abroad, there aren’t any countries that teach their kids to chant “death to America” for the fun of it. Not to mention the fact that there are options that aren’t “economic oppression” or “war.”

Why would "for the fun of it" be a prerequisite for it to be bad..?

If someone shouts "death to " from across the street, I take it _very_ seriously.

I fully understand the history between Iran and the US, but you you can't have suicidal empathy with an enemy state that trains its people to want you dead.

Re: Delete FROM users WHERE location = 'Iran';

#600

Post by 1234letshaveatw »

figmert wrote: post #593
1234letshaveatw wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Every international body had checked, and confirmed that Iran had no intention of building nuclear weapons. Even to this day. Even after what Israel and US did. Netanyahu has been saying Iran in minutes away from building nuclear weapons since early 2010s. Never mind those facts. Let's say they are building weapons. What gives the US the right to build enough nuclear weapons that they could destroy the world multiple…

No intention huh? Maybe you think the underground bunkers are for funsies. That is the silliest thing I have heard today. Congratulations.
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