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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#591

I get this impression that the Rust people think they are a stage where Rust is a viral phenom but it's really not. Nevertheless, they are behaving like its viral and trying to force it down everybody's throats, even though I never heard of some software package or system that was built natively in rust that truly went viral. The other day I tried to install a python package and - big surprise - it REQUIRED me to ins…

> (i'm on WSL which DOES NOT have a rust toolchain)!

This is plainly false.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#592
post #534

Linux is one of the most complicated OS in the history of OS and both of them understand this in someway or the other, it's still not cracked enough market share to dominate the personal computer market even in 2025, but is already on millions of other devices except PCs and a small change in decision like r4l brings the whole perspective into matter, after the fact that rust is highly compute intensive language and…

> the fact that rust is highly compute intensive language care to elaborate on that?

rust utilizes various methods at compile time which significantly increases compute, such as compiler is optimised for memory safety, which causes it do a lot of tasks and changes at compile time unlike C and inturn during execution to ensure ms, which could easily be avoided, it is good for overflow situations but in terms of compute required in exchange for the program is simply(currently) not at the level that would be great to have in Linux kernel, in a few years maybe

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. Efficiently collaborating on large distributed open source projects like Linux is as much social act…

> just keep being open minded about it and let the chips fall where they may. It's a failure of leadership to not intervene when discord threatens the group. He should weigh in, or make sure that someone else who has mutual trust weighs in. In youth sports, something similar happens when referees fail to call fouls on rough play. Players naturally test the limits and then others recognize the lack of protection and r…

> It's a failure of leadership to not intervene when discord threatens the group. He should weigh in, or make sure that someone else who has mutual trust weighs in.

Nothing in that particular "drama" threatens Linux kernel maintainers as a group. Multiple solutions were proposed, like just sending the change directly to Linus bypassing Hellwig or copy/pasting the code to each individual driver for now. Marcan having public meltdown in that thread probably makes option 1 no-go though and doesn't improve R4L standing with the skeptical group of maintainers.

> In youth sports, something similar happens when referees fail to call fouls on rough play. Players naturally test the limits and then others recognize the lack of protection and retaliate until it gets really out of hand.

For better or worse the social contract in LKLM is not like what a lot of Rust people used to where you come in with furry avatar and pronouns in your profile, then cry for mommy to enforce CoC on first signs of conflict. Basically, extending your analogy, you don't come to an American football match expecting the referee to enforce basketball no-contact rules.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#595
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having contributed a few times, I'd rate it as similar (sometimes much easier!) than contributing to Firefox and Chromium. That is to say that it is indeed extremely time-consuming and frustrating, but when compared to projects of the same scale it does not necessarily come out as more time-consuming or more frustrating - this will never be a small team collaborating on a random Github repo. A simple "swap out X work…

It's way more painful to contribute to the kernel than contribute to Firefox, at least, unless things have changed since I was involved with Firefox. Suppose you find a bug in the kernel and come up with a patch. You email the patch to some kernel mailing list and ask for feedback. Typically, you will receive no response whatsoever, because no-one is responsible for responding. You can try emailing random developers…

In my experience it's the opposite - the email patch usually gets dealt with within a week or two, Firefox and Chromium dragged out because it wasn't whatever Mozilla or Google prioritized right now. Or worse, it might go against an internal corporate KPI.

In Firefox you have to fiddle with Mercurial, phabricator, and their homegrown CI. In Chromium its Gerrit and their homegrown CI, and oh btw you touched code that lacked tests so tag, you're it.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with Vegenoid that using diseases for labeling poorly written code is at the very least highly unprofessional. This practice not only diminishes the seriousness of illnesses like cancer when used so casually, but it also cannot provide helpful constructive feedback. Instead of providing helpful advice like outlining the current situation and suggesting specific improvements (action A, task B, and goal C) to r…

There is no specific improvement if the problem is fundamental. There is no "better/right" way to spread a cancer. (I'm not saying it is, just that that is the argument, and in that context, there is no such thing as a common goal to reach some better way. Everyone does not actually have to agree that all goals are valid and should be reached.) The only helpful advice, which they did give, is don't even start doing t…

> The linux kernel is like a house where everyone is a vegan. Marcan believes that incorporating some meat in the diet is important, and better that being a vegan. He may even be right. But so what? He makes his pitch, the family says that's nice but no thanks. He then demands that they eat this chicken because he wants to live in the house and wants to eat chicken while living in the vegan house?

While I think this a dumb metaphor, it's also incorrect in this context. The Linux kernel explicitly supports C and Rust code, and there are very clear parameters to allow for Rust code to be integrated into parts of the kernel.

Or in other words, the decision has already been made to allow meat into the vegan household, and now one maintainer is explicitly blocking a package of meat from entering the building, even though it has already been decided from on high that meat should be allowed in.

This isn't quite accurate, though, because of the unnecessary metaphor thing. Reading the original mailing list chain all the way through and talking about these events directly is completely sufficient here. The patch was reasonable within the parameters set out for the R4L project. The maintainer of this subsystem blocked it explicitly because they disagree with the idea of R4L in general (calling it a cancer).

The question is not whether or not R4L is a good thing or a bad thing - anyone can have their own opinion on that. R4L is part of Linux, and will be for the foreseeable future, until it either clearly demonstrates its use, or clearly demonstrates its failure. The question (at least as regards the "cancer" comment) is whether it is okay for a maintainer to describe another team's work as cancer, and to publicly block it as much as they can.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said this before, but the rust community really seems to attract the most toxic and drama-thumping types as their icons. I'm not really sure why such types are drawn to it.

[flagged]

If you don't want to use C perhaps you shouldn't contribute to a 33 year old project written in C?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an absolutely awful statement about one of the most successful community projects ever. Direction usually comes from the community and the maintainers just steer it. Little in the kernel comes from maintainers saying "let's do X" and community members implementing it

See how slow Wayland progress has been for an example of my grudges with that model of development

Almost two decades later, for unexplicable reasons, every new client not piggybacking on an eatablished toolkit or a new toolkit/compositor struggles with clipboard support, I shit you not.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#600
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought it was a pretty blatant "vibe check" to filter out people who are so uncomfortable with software that they can't customize their environment to create an email workflow that works for them.

I've contributed to a couple of projects that use email based workflows. I can customize my environment, but it takes a lot of time, and I would rather do something else than figure out how to filter the firehose of a mailing list to the few emails I actually care about, or learn how to use a new email client that is slightly better and handling patches. The first few times, it took me longer to figure out how to sen…

But you only have to figure that out once. Amortized over many contributions the cost is essentially nothing.
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