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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. The notion that if you just pay enough, people who are otherwise qualified will do anything, is amazingly reductive. It's a super US-centric view, and not surprisingly, it does not have an amazing history of working out (especially compared to other mechanisms). Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this,…

Maybe we should TRY paying people more. Like just once. Just to see what happens.

We do? Is there a reason you believe otherwise?

There are nearly infinite studies in infinite fields on this, and despite claims here, the results are mixed at best.

Certainly not the utopia consistently predicted.

I'm sure someone will next just say it's not enough money, rather than bother to read any of the studies and whether they tried to account for this or not, or ...

I'm going to ignore those comments, since it doesn't seem like a discussion anyone wants to learn anything in.

If you want to push your preferred position, that's sort of silly. There is no winning or losing here. If you want to actually learn something, happy to discuss it for real.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#592
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the "No" list for overtime, so I don't normally get scheduled it, but when I do, it's about two or three weeks in advance. People on the "Yes" list get the scheduled overtime when the schedule comes out about 5 or 6 weeks in advance. By law we cannot work more than 10 hour days, 6 days in a row. There are some facilities where controllers are all being scheduled to that limit. I do often get calls on my days o…

> on a particular day I won't know if my shift starts at noon or 3pm until the schedule is posted. Why? What's the rationale to that? Presumably that doesn't work if you have small kids or dependents, or a commute with a bad rush-hour. What I'm trying to get at is now that the situation at ATC has the full attention of the public, in a bipartisan way, time to tell us if you could wave a magic wand at the whole setup,…

Answer to first question:

Some days people don't have any leave bid, some days maybe one person who works on the morning shift and one person who works on the evening shift both have the day bid off, some days everyone who works the evening shift has the day bid off.

Whomever is making the schedule has to balance the controller availability with the minimum-required staffing numbers for that time of day.

Some facilities will let you flex in early, so you could just plan to arrive half an hour early (and leave half an hour early). If once in a blue moon you are a few minutes late due to unusually bad traffic, most managers are okay with that as long as it isn't a common occurance, in which case you need to leave home earlier.

Answers to second question:

(I have smaller suggestions that are needed, but I figure I'll try to be efficient with people's time and give probably the biggest two issues that I think everyone can get behind.)

1) Fix initial facility assignment. It's currently random and wastes a ton of time and money. If you're from a small town that has an opening in the control tower or you're from a large city that has an approach control or "center", you should be able to choose to go there (or close to there) once you graduate from the FAA academy. As it is now, the spot could go to a random person in a class behind you at the Academy who doesn't want that spot, and you go to some random place where you're miserable, waste everyone's time and FAA money while training there, then apply to transfer (and it's basically impossible to transfer when everywhere is below staffing and they won't release you), and then spend more time and FAA money training again at a new facility (and that other person who got the spot you wanted will also be wasting time and money training at a facility they don't want to be at either). There should be a way to submit a list of preferences and have an algorithm place you close to one of your top 10 choices/areas. If someone in authority asked me to develop a system/algorithm and a fair set of rules that's hard to game, I could probably do it, but it would take some work to come up with and then a lot more work to develop and test, but it would be worth it to the NAS (National Airspace System). Unfortunately such an assignment would probably go to the union for them to hand out to their buddies (Article 114 of the collective bargaining agreement).

Suggestion 1 (above) will save money and be more efficient in the long-run. Suggestion 2 (below) will cost more money initially, but should balance out in the long-run by attracting more qualified people who will be less likely to wash-out (whereas money is wasted on training people who will eventually wash-out, or quit when they realize it's not worth it.

2) Pay us more. Attract more qualified people who will be better controllers, by offering a better salary. The salary used to be better, but it has been eroded away through inflation. Pilots are getting 40% raises (over a couple of years) and we get 2% raises (well, 3.6% or so with the union contract). There are a lot less Air Traffic Controllers than pilots, and we are vital to the nation's security and economy. Qualified people who might be interested in ATC realize they can make just as much money in other industries that don't kill them mentally and physically like ATC does for the same if not more amount of money.

(Opinions are my own and not necessarily that of the FAA.)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still a simplistic view. If you increase salaries the pay has to come from somewhere. Does that mean making flights more expensive? Or raising taxes? Either way it's not as simple as "just increase salaries, dummy".

Making flights more expensive would also address the ATC shortage, by reducing workload. Good idea. (Econ 101 again: increased price -> reduced demand, i. e. fewer flights.)

Except that the people making these decisions are politicians. So while Econ 101 applies, so does Politics 101: don't anger voters. It's not uncommon for those two to be in conflict.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#594
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. The notion that if you just pay enough, people who are otherwise qualified will do anything, is amazingly reductive. It's a super US-centric view, and not surprisingly, it does not have an amazing history of working out (especially compared to other mechanisms). Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this,…

> There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do.

If you think that, you aren't considering paying them enough money.

> Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this, even if you paid more?

You ain't thinking about offering them enough money. Enough money means as much as it takes to make your offer better than any other option they have.

> In fact - plenty of smart people will take pay cuts for better qualify of life.

True, but also the same people will take quality of life cuts if you offer enough money.

Also, in general, the best way to improve one's quality of life is... through more money.

> Example: Plenty of folks take pay cuts to work remotely from places they like more, and because they find it a better quality of life.

Counterexample: add four zeros to the salary offered, and watch how many of them won't be happy to uproot and move with their whole family to your location within 24 hours.

> Not everyone is money driven, and the assumption that here is that the intersection of "money driven, capable of doing this job, etc" is large enough that increasing the amount of money will make the result larger.

This assumption is sound in theory and almost always true in practice, it's just rarely attempted, because you need to spend money, which people absolutely hate.

Almost all cases of skilled staff shortage can be solved with multiplying the payment by 2-10x (and convincing people you mean it - at the 10x end, people may start having doubts, precisely because it's so uncommon to see). Do that, and you'll have your competitors' staff jumping ship, and a wave of skilled applicants from abroad, committed to relocate if you let them. If the market for the skill is growing and you're able to sustain the pay bump, people will retrain and entrepreneurs will start schools for future candidates.

And yes, with that much extra money available, other entrepreneurs will try and pitch all kinds of software and hardware that will reduce your need for skilled labor, hoping you pay them instead.

Of course, 2-10x bump might make the whole endeavor stop making business sense on your end. It's often the case. But in this situation, saying there's shortage of labor is a lie. It's only a shortage at the price you're willing to pay.

This all just follows the same dynamics everything else in the economy does. If you believe employment is a special case where this doesn't apply, you're still not imagining paying enough money :).

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. The notion that if you just pay enough, people who are otherwise qualified will do anything, is amazingly reductive. It's a super US-centric view, and not surprisingly, it does not have an amazing history of working out (especially compared to other mechanisms). Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this,…

> There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. This is true for individuals. With a sample size large enough, the probability that no one will be up for it given the increased pay, is extremely low, tending to zero.

Sure, but increasing that sample size would require doing more than just paying them more.

IE it's not particularly useful to say "we will pay 1 million billion dollars to anyone in the united states who wishes to be an air traffic controller" if you want good air traffic controllers.

It is more useful, for example, to take the people who wanted to do this, and you stopped from doing this before for dumb reasons, and offer them more money to go back to doing this.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#596
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. The notion that if you just pay enough, people who are otherwise qualified will do anything, is amazingly reductive. It's a super US-centric view, and not surprisingly, it does not have an amazing history of working out (especially compared to other mechanisms). Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this,…

> There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do.

Would you mind listing 2 or 3 examples? All the jobs that I do not want to do that I can think of, are actually poorly compensated.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. The notion that if you just pay enough, people who are otherwise qualified will do anything, is amazingly reductive. It's a super US-centric view, and not surprisingly, it does not have an amazing history of working out (especially compared to other mechanisms). Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this,…

Why not at least try to pay people more? Everyone gives exactly your argument without ever trying to raise the base salary for new hires and give existing workers a boost in pay. You can't say it doesn't work until you've raised the median salary in the field and observed the effect. Managers and bean counters aren't willing to do this so it will never happen.

Again, we have?

I knew, of course, this would be the response. But i'm not sure why, in the history of the world, people assume we haven't tried paying people more in various fields, and that "managers and bean counters aren't willing to do it".

It's amazingly silly.

It would take you less than 60 seconds to find at least 100 studies on this, across tons of fields.

The next thing that happens is that when you point out studies (and there are plenty good and bad), they will start arguing with any study that doesn't support their already preferred position, rather than trying to ever spend time considering alternatives.

There are nearly infinite studies on infinite fields and the results are fairly mixed.

Certainly not the amazingly positive expected value that constantly gets paraded around.

Some of y'all are so money driven you just can't possibly contemplate that not everyone is driven by money.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we should TRY paying people more. Like just once. Just to see what happens.

We do? Is there a reason you believe otherwise? There are nearly infinite studies in infinite fields on this, and despite claims here, the results are mixed at best. Certainly not the utopia consistently predicted. I'm sure someone will next just say it's not enough money, rather than bother to read any of the studies and whether they tried to account for this or not, or ... I'm going to ignore those comments, since…

We don't? I.e. if "10% more" doesn't seem to affect anything, we should maybe try "10x more" instead, and if that doesn't do anything, then conclude there's no more relevant labor left in the pool.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. The notion that if you just pay enough, people who are otherwise qualified will do anything, is amazingly reductive. It's a super US-centric view, and not surprisingly, it does not have an amazing history of working out (especially compared to other mechanisms). Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this,…

> There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. If you think that, you aren't considering paying them enough money. > Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this, even if you paid more? You ain't thinking about offering them enough money. Enough money means as much as it takes to make your offer better than any other option they have. > In fact - plent…

This is again, so reductive i don't know where to begin.

You really just assume everyone, at their core, is money driven enough. So to you, everything is about whether they are beign offered enough money. You even use the amazingly circular reasoning that if you discover them saying no, it just means you weren't trying to pay them enough.

There is apparently no limit to this, and anything gets solved by more money. This of course, can't possibly be disproven, since you will just say to increase the limits.

Meanwhile, as I've said, this is an intensely researched thing. I have yet to see a single person constantly pushing the infinite money angle make any reasoned argument, backed up by any study or data.

As I've said, plenty of studies have explored the effect and limits of giving more money on happiness, on recruitment, etc, on tons and tons and tons of fields.

Rather than just making reductive arguments that don't really get us anywhere, why don't you make a reasoned one?

also consider, just for a second, the possibility that not everyone is this money driven. Seriously.

"Enough money means as much as it takes to make your offer better than any other option they have."

That doesn't always exist. That's the whole thing about not everyone being money driven.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of jobs that you can't pay people enough money to want to do. The notion that if you just pay enough, people who are otherwise qualified will do anything, is amazingly reductive. It's a super US-centric view, and not surprisingly, it does not have an amazing history of working out (especially compared to other mechanisms). Given the people in question have good other options, why would they do this,…

> In fact – plenty of [smart] people will take pay cuts for better qualify of life. Yep, I dropped to a 4-day week prorated (so a 20% cut, a little less if you consider that changed my position with respect to tax boundaries, for 20% less work) a while back, to deal with family health issues and my own burn-out. As things are fixing up I'm considering keeping to this routine despite the fact the extra money would be…

Do you think this is a counterargument? The implication is that for 20% + n% you'd go back to a 5 day week.
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