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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#591

Post by consteval »

tpxl wrote: post #367
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, that was down to a huge JSON file / slow JSON parser or something wasn't it? That was so bad.

They wrote their own json parser which used strlen() all over the place, which is O(n), resulting in O(n^2) complexity for json parsing. The guy shimmed the function to return a cached response if it was called with the same string consecutively, which it was for parsing the JSON. The JSON contained the items in the real-money store btw.

Why would anyone ever write their own JSON parser? There're countless libs available that are hyper-optimized.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#592

Post by JohnMakin »

I'm absolutely not a fan of giving a game the level of kernel access these games take without my permission. That said, cheating is an existential threat to a good game experience online, and I really don't know of any other solution. What's been frustrating over the years is when kernel anti-cheats, unbeknownst to you, are causing issues with other games entirely unrelated to what you are playing - because some game developers had a bad habit of leaving them running/idle even if you were not playing.

I have a dedicated laptop for gaming that I do absolutely nothing else on, not even logging into email accounts. Just steam + games + whatever video software I might need. This is my sane compromise as someone who participates in a lot of competitive games. it sucks, but I see no better solution than to disclose it (insane this wasn't the standard already). Even that is hard, because if you disclose too much, cheaters can take advantage.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#593

Post by raincole »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #574
Arch-TK wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. This is the answer. There is no solution that relies only on technology that will fix human problems at scale. You can make it harder, but once one person figures it out, everyone has access to it. You need to break it into pieces and let people deal with it on the community level, where communities are small enough that people can deal with individuals. The issue is that the players themselves seem to think t…

Really? Most gaming communities seem to hate kla as it breaks their steam deck compatibility or linux compatibility.

Most players don't use Steam Deck or Linux.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#594

Post by athrowaway3z »

LelouBil wrote: post #585
Kapura wrote: post #582

I know there are large multiplayer shooters that have or are going to be moving off of Linux soon. Anecdotally, the percentage of linux users running cheat software is significant, north of 50% in some cases. Ultimately, I sympathize with game developers trying to create a good, _consistent_ experience for players across multiplayer titles. The reason players accept anticheat software in large mp games is because the…

I think I saw on HN a while ago someone suggesting that Valve could make a "clean kernel" build that anti cheats could whitelist for Linux/Proton games.

The plan to control what a persistent cheater does to their own device is more than 5 decades of straight failures.

Just one more client anti-cheat measure bro. Just one ring lower bro.

I'm not sure what I find more terrifying: the persistence of the NSA & Disney lobby for subverting root control in all devices, or that so many people mindlessly agree its the right direction to go and their world will be a better place for it.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#595

Post by figgis »

donatj wrote: post #546

Has anyone made a game where cheating is not just explicitly allowed but is in fact the game ? It really seems like there could be something there.

Unsure if anyone has made a game specifically for that. But there are plenty of intentionally unsecure servers (no VAC, or other anti-cheat) in games like counter strike for Hacker vs Hacker.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#596

Post by arp242 »

shultays wrote: post #463
arp242 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can tune the aimbot to be as good as the server allows, maybe with a bit of variation to throw it off. And realistically, some real non-cheating players will by chance just have similar statistics to bots, especially since the bots will start doing their best to mimic real players. Also many players don't need to cheat all the time; just in that critical moment when it really matters. Didn't Magnus Carlsen say he…

Didn't Magnus Carlsen say he only needs a single move from a chess computer in the right moment to be virtually guaranteed win If we are thinking of the same quote, iirc he said all he needs is a prompt from computer "there is a winning move here"

Yeah, maybe – don't recall the precise quote off-hand. But the gist of it was "I need very little help from a chess computer to have a huge advantage".

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#597

Post by andrewmcwatters »

janderland wrote: post #283
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #116

I think the population of game developers and their knowledge of multiplayer networking is fundamentally getting worse over time, because I see things that should not be architecturally possible in a lot of newer multiplayer games. This whole thing anti-cheat thing is just a separate problem entirely, but it's so painfully exacerbated by the first.

Strange take. These things are being put forward by major companies who hire very good engineers. Riot Games makes the most popular game in the entire world (League of Legends) and they use kernel-level anti-cheating. I interviewed with them and found their test to be one of the more difficult ones I’ve taken. I’m not under the impression they lack the necessary knowledge.

Your interview experience at one company isn’t representative of the entire industry.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#598

Post by sunshowers »

consteval wrote: post #589
ethbr1 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> historically a large chunk of this problem was solved by communities hosting servers Yes and no. I lived through that era too, and there are serious scaling problems: at some point, trying to banhammer griefers with rotating IPs becomes a full time job, and then the public servers turn into a dumpster fire.

Solution: submit them for an account ban. The games that have the most cheating either: 1. don't do account bans 2. don't limit account creation You can trivially limit account creation by just charging money for the games.

I think free to play is where the market has ended up.

I get it, though, I kind of stopped playing competitive games after it became all about the F2P grind. Even cosmetics-only F2P hits a part of my brain that I try keeping in check. I just play single-player and cooperative games now.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#599

Post by bunderbunder »

JambalayaJimbo wrote: post #563
bunderbunder wrote: post #559

So, I'm not really into online multiplayer, but from a distance I keep wondering if this could be more easily mitigated by altering the incentive structure? What if online games track how well people do and sort them into tiers based on skill level? And then put people who are roughly evenly matched together. I am guessing that cheaters will naturally end up clumping together with each other, and maybe a smattering o…

Skilled players will NOT benefit from playing with others who are cheating, because their games will adapt to cheaters and not other skilled players. Cheaters will also easily adapt to ranking systems by creating new accounts or intentionally de-ranking themselves.

Are the skilled players plugged into communities enough that they can just make their own servers? It would be some extra work, but I assume time spent getting to know each other wouldn't feel like a total waste, and might be greatly preferable to dealing with all these rootkits.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#600

Post by Arch-TK »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #572
Arch-TK wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason games companies reach for KLA is not because they're dumb and can't be bothered to secure their network protocols on the server side, it's because they don't want to have to hire an inordinate number of human reviewers to make unreliable decisions on whether someone is cheating or not in their game. While KLA is fundamentally flawed (DMA and even CV based cheats are becoming more popular as a result of KLA…

Realistically if you make a game hack where it behaves exactly as well as a high skilled player, no one should care. The lobby experience is the same as if you got a really good player in there. When people moan about hackers its when they are blatant. Dominating the entire server and obviously hacking when you spectate them. If you take away all this low hanging fruit who cares about the people who are cheating with…

I think people happen not to care as long as they don't know, but if they were made aware then they would care. Games companies rely on the fact that people don't care if they don't know because it means they _only_ have to rely on KLA to get rid of most people with trashy spinbots.
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