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OpenAI to become for-profit company

reuters.com

591–600 of 809 posts

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#591
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a US thing? In the UK employee tax is the employee’s to pay, not the company. Even if the company technically transfers it directly to the tax agency it’s not really their money. EDIT: I guess we do have employer tax as national insurance contributions too, always forget about that since I’ve always paid myself under that threshold

I'm not sure if you mean whether the UK has the same low corporation vs high income/pension/NI contributions income? If so, yes. The UK does have employers NI contributions but that's not what I mean. The point is, if you spent a year to earn a gross £100k, and as you earn it, pay £50k of total tax, and with the remaining £40k/£50k you spend it on an employee at your company in salary and pay then £20k of tax, the go…

> So the government gets to re-tax most of that money when you use it to hire someone to build a new business with you.

You should consider it also from the point of view of the employee. The government taxes your employee to offer him services, it does not care who hires him (you, that saved the money).

Yes, it is true that you need lots of money to HIRE someone, but you can try to do a startup with a couple people that live from their savings for a while (so, not paying themselves a salary, but having shares) which avoids the tax situation as first.

I think we are quite bad to assess how was life around 1900 in terms of infrastructure (in any country) - so yes, probably people paid less taxes but lived in much worse overall conditions.

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually a good idea. I say we go even further and stop wasting so much money cleaning up after companies - get rid of the entire legal entity known as a corporation and let investors shoulder the full liability that comes with their ownership stake.

History has shown that limited liability is a massive advantage for our economy in encouraging both domestic and foreign investment. Seems unlikely we would put ourselves at a global disadvantage by doing this.

History has also shown that limited liability ends up costing me an awful lot of tax money to cover for some twat getting paid out (at a lower tax rate) with no consequences for their actions. Adding liability would certainly lower my taxes, and have a fantastic chilling effect on the type of trash that harm innocent bystanders with their reckless disregard for consequences in the name of chasing a dollar.

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#593
I’d guess it would be legally not possible to turn a non-profit into a for-profit company, no matter how confusing the company structure gets. And even (or rather, especially) if the project disrupts the economy on a global level. I’m not surprised that this is happening, but how we got here - I don’t know.

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#594
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sam: "I'm not in it for the money. I have principles." World: "But what if it was like, a lot of money?" Sam: "Oh alright you convinced me. Fuck my principles."

What do you do with a a lot of money past a point? A corporate controlled AGI being just a stop on the way to build another private space agency seems like a...letdown.

Kid Rock did it first, but a golden toilet would be my answer.

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#595

I’m confused by this news story and the response here. No one seems to understand OpenAI’s corporate structure or non profits at all. My understanding: OpenAI follows the same model Mozilla does. The nonprofit has owned a for-profit corporation called OpenAI Global, LLC that pays taxes on any revenue that isn’t directly in service of their mission (in a very narrow sense based on judicial precedent) since 2019 [1]. I…

The problem is that OpenAI calls itself OpenAI when it's completely sealed off, and calls itself a non-profit when, as you say, almost everything about is for profit. Basically they're whitewashing their image as an organization with noble goals when it's simply yet another profit motivated company. It's fine if that's what they are and want to be, but the lies are bothersome.

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#596

Can anybody explain how this actually works? What happens to all of the non-profit's assets? They can't just give it away for investors to own. The non-profit could maybe sell its assets to investors, but then what would it do with the money? I'm sure OpenAI has an explanation, but I really want to hear more details. In the most simple analysis of "non-profit becomes for-profit", there's really no way to square it ot…

If the assets were sold to the for profit at a fair price I could see this being legal (even if it shouldn't be). At least in that case the value generated by the non-profit tax free would stay locked up in non-profit land. The biggest problem with this is that there's basically no chance that the sale price of the non-profit assets is going to be $150 billion, which means that whatever the gap is between the valuati…

“You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.”

― L. Ron Hubbard

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#597
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar example can be seen with the demise of Twitter under the new owner, which has no safeguards or guardrails - anyone who opposed him is gone and we can see in what state it is now.

With the small difference that Twitter is a for-profit company, unlike OpenAI.

With respect, you should look again at the article you're commenting on.

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#598
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very far from a musk fan, and if you want to make the case that musk isn't responsible for Tesla, SpaceX, and Starlink I think that's a legitimate argument to be made. But I don't think there's much argument to be made that those 3 companies are not advancing humanity.

Tesla and SpaceX would not exist OR prosper, without Musk. If you want to understand why, read the Walter Isaacson biography of Musk (which is based on accounts by his friends, enemies and employees). He's a hard-arsed manager, he is technically involved at all levels of the company, he is relentless, and he takes risks and iterates like no other CEO.

[flagged]

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#599

I’m confused by this news story and the response here. No one seems to understand OpenAI’s corporate structure or non profits at all. My understanding: OpenAI follows the same model Mozilla does. The nonprofit has owned a for-profit corporation called OpenAI Global, LLC that pays taxes on any revenue that isn’t directly in service of their mission (in a very narrow sense based on judicial precedent) since 2019 [1]. I…

Good questions!

Right now, OpenAI, Inc. (California non-profit, lets say the charity) is the sole controlling shareholder of OpenAI Global LLC (Delaware for-profit, lets say the company). So, just to start off with the big picture: the whole enterprise was ultimately under the sole control of the non-profit board, who in turn was obligated to operate in furtherance of "charitable public benefit". This is what the linked article means by "significant governance changes happening behind the scenes," which should hopefully convince you that I'm not making this part up.

To get really specific, this change would mean that they'd no longer be obligated to comply with these CA laws:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.x...

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/registration-reporting...

And, a little less importantly, comply with the guidelines for "Public Charities" covered by federal code 501(c)(3) (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/501) covered by this set of articles: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organiz... . The important bits are:

  The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.
  ... The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.
I'm personally dubious about the specific claims you made about revenue, but that's hard to find info on, and not the core issue. The core issue was that they were obligated (not just, like, promising) to direct all of their actions towards the public good, and they're abandoning that to instead profit a few shareholders, taking the fruit of their financial and social status with them. They've been making some money for some investors (or losses...), but the non-profit was, legally speaking, only allowed to permit that as a means to an end.

Naturally, this makes it very hard to explain how the nonprofit could give up basically all of its control without breaking its obligations.

All the above covers "why does it feel unfair for a non-profit entity to gift its assets to a for-profit", but I'll briefly cover the more specific issue of "why does it feel unfair for OpenAI in particular to abandon their founding mission". The answer is simple: they explicitly warned us that for-profit pursuit of AGI is dangerous, potentially leading to catastrophic tragedies involving unrelated members of the global public. We're talking "mass casualty event"-level stuff here, and it's really troubling to see the exact same organization change their mind now that they're in a dominant position. Here's the relevant quotes from their founding documents:

  OpenAI is a non-profit artificial intelligence research company. Our goal is to advance digital intelligence in the way that is most likely to benefit humanity as a whole, unconstrained by a need to generate financial return. Since our research is free from financial obligations, we can better focus on a positive human impact... 
  It’s hard to fathom how much human-level AI could benefit society, and it’s equally hard to imagine how much it could damage society if built or used incorrectly. Because of AI’s surprising history, it’s hard to predict when human-level AI might come within reach. When it does, it’ll be important to have a leading research institution which can prioritize a good outcome for all over its own self-interest.
From their 2015 founding post: https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai/

  We commit to use any influence we obtain over AGI’s deployment to ensure it is used for the benefit of all, and to avoid enabling uses of AI or AGI that harm humanity or unduly concentrate power. Our primary fiduciary duty is to humanity...
  We are concerned about late-stage AGI development becoming a competitive race without time for adequate safety precautions. Therefore, if a value-aligned, safety-conscious project comes close to building AGI before we do, we commit to stop competing with and start assisting this project. We will work out specifics in case-by-case agreements, but a typical triggering condition might be “a better-than-even chance of success in the next two years.”
From their 2018 charter: https://web.archive.org/web/20230714043611/https://openai.co...

Sorry for the long reply, and I appreciate the polite + well-researched question! As you can probably guess, this move makes me a little offended and very anxious. For more, look at the posts from the leaders who quit in protest yesterday, namely their CTO.

Re: OpenAI to become for-profit company

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenAI Global LLC is the $100b asset. It’s not being removed, the nonprofit will still own all the shares it owns now until it decides to sell.

The shares will be diluted - the LLC used to be 100% owned by the non-profit; and now there's no bottom.

Normally shareholders aren’t ok with that.
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