Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#591

Post by asadotzler » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:36 PM UTC

overstay8930 wrote: post #208

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how is it possible, that I can run unsigned, unnotarized applications on MacOS?

That is one of the reasons why businesses must have security software monitoring your entire system on macOS, but not on iOS. On Windows, people literally just give everything they install complete root access to their entire system when installing applications, might as well bring that to iOS too, right? You’re not making the point you think you’re making. There’s a lot more danger using macOS/Windows than iOS, and…

Yeah, it'd be terrible, awful, horrible if we could run the software we want on the computers we purchase. I've been installing software on WIndows without an infection since 2002, probably before you were born and I've been using third party Android app sources for various projects and products for a full decade without a single unwanted malware like behavior other than obnoxious notification spam. Yeah, tell me how much danger I'm in from my Windows and Android software, child.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#592

Post by kmeisthax » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:37 PM UTC

kowbell wrote: post #429

kmeisthax wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Existing law surrounding anticircumvention already singles out game consoles as deserving special protection. i.e. the Copyright Office made it explicitly legal to circumvent the iPhone's DRM in order to install otherwise legal software, but they refused to extend this to game consoles. While you are technically correct that we should be treating game consoles the same as smartphones, in practice the industry treats…

> take away all the devkits Epic uses to test Unreal Engine, demanding they delete the console ports of the engine, and refusing to cert any new games using Unreal Engine, forcing all their partners to license different technology and rebuild their games I think this is a lil extreme. Even if Epic had some reason to sue the console makers, there are too many high profile and high grossing games (e.g. the next Witcher…

> why won’t the other swallow their pride and become the console-exclusive platform for that title?

It depends on who's being sued and who isn't. Microsoft absolutely would swallow their pride here if it meant getting one up on Sony, if only because the Xbox is already partially open anyway[0] and the Xbox business is significantly hurting right now. Reverse the roles, however, with Microsoft being sued, and they absolutely would respond by trying to disable Epic's access to the Xbox platform and to other Xbox developers. Sony would not do Epic any favors here either and probably would stand in solidarity with Microsoft - because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Remember: the console business is about handcuffing users and developers; Epic's lawsuit goes against that. We actually know a lot about Epic's communications with the console manufacturers as a result of the Epic v. Apple lawsuit[1]. They were worried that the "direct payments" stunt was going to eat into microtransaction profits, because Epic had applied the discount you got on V-Bucks to consoles as well as iOS. Epic also kept the both the lawsuit and their lobbying from including videogame consoles, because of the possibility that it would impact the Unreal business.

For what it's worth, Apple actually did try to get Epic's Unreal division banned from iOS, but was stopped by the judge in the Epic v. Apple case. Apple also has tried to regulate what frameworks app developers are allowed to use in the past. Back a decade and change ago, Adobe shipped Flash Packager for iPhone to allow Flash developers to ship SWFs as iPhone apps. Apple changed their developer agreements to specifically require all apps be "originally written" in Objective-C, C/C++, or JavaScript; so they'd have cover to reject Flash apps. They backed down a few months later only because the Obama-era DOJ actually threatened to sue, which is why you've probably used a ton of Flash games on your iPhone without even knowing.

[0] To be clear, you can get access to the Shared partition to run software on but you cannot access the Exclusive partition without a devkit.

[1] Because Apple was trying to prove that the lawsuit was a stunt and that Epic was suing over a very normal business practice everyone else in the business embraced wholeheartedly

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#593

Post by BeFlatXIII » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:37 PM UTC

rmbyrro wrote: post #258

Etheryte wrote: post #84

The terms and conditions for web distribution [0] are concerning to say the least. In short, you have to have at least one million first installs annually on iOS to even qualify, in addition to other terms such as "good standing in the Apple Developer Program for two continuous years or more". I doubt Epic and the like would be considered in good standing as far as Apple is concerned. Also, quote unquote, developers…

It's sad to see Apple adopting kind of an Oracle way of business. "Kind of"... They were screwed by Microsoft in the past. And now they're the ones screwing every single small and mid-sized software shop everywhere. When will we stop buying their products?

> When will we stop buying their products?

When their competitors finally bother to pay attention to build quality.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#594

Post by gcanyon » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:38 PM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #84

The terms and conditions for web distribution [0] are concerning to say the least. In short, you have to have at least one million first installs annually on iOS to even qualify, in addition to other terms such as "good standing in the Apple Developer Program for two continuous years or more". I doubt Epic and the like would be considered in good standing as far as Apple is concerned. Also, quote unquote, developers…

I'm a little bit playing devil's advocate here, but: concerning how?

> you have to have at least one million first installs annually on iOS to even qualify

That's not what the site says at all? "Membership in the Apple Developer Program includes one million first annual installs per year for free for apps distributed from the App Store, alternative marketplaces, and/or Web Distribution." That seems to indicate that there is no minimum, and installs up to 1 million are free. That means that (wild guess) 99.5% of all apps ever released will pay no fee. EDIT TO CORRECT: see below, you have to have an app over 1 million downloads in the previous year to participate, but this description of the fee structure is correct. Which is...weird?

> I doubt Epic and the like would be considered in good standing as far as Apple is concerned.

If Apple plays games like this, they deserve consequences. But does it make sense to take this interpretation rather than just assuming the language means what it means: you haven't been kicked off the platform, and you've been around for two years?

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#595

Post by pas » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:39 PM UTC

margana wrote: post #560

paulpan wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This can't be repeated often enough. App Store revenue (part of Services segment) is a key growth driver and Apple will drag this out for as long as they can. I think it's inevitable iPhone 16 prices will increase in EU starting later this year. Arguably similar to Valve's Steam Deck, iPhone prices are subsidized by the apps revenue. Apple is going to try preserve their profit margins one way or another.

People seemingly keep forgetting that you can have direct installs and alternate stores on Android but somehow Play Store is still dominant.

Because there's not much you can't put on the Play store that's worth managing separately. (And because of this alternate stores are extremely meh.)

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#596

Post by BeFlatXIII » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:40 PM UTC

sunshowers wrote: post #576

jwells89 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having tracked API changes fairly closely on macOS and iOS for many years now, I can’t think of too many that were just pointless furniture shuffling. Nearly all of them were to enable addition of new features or to improve developer QoL in some way — dropping 32-bit support for example allowed them to make long desired improvements in AppKit that were impractical prior due to quirks in the way Objective-C works. Tha…

It's important for platforms to support works of art indefinitely. It is not reasonable to expect, say, decade-old games to be updated (something that can involve weeks or months of work because underlying toolkits may need to be updated as well). This was a huge issue when Apple killed 32-bit support. Moves like this destroy trust within communities.

That's how platforms are killed by neglect. They become locked into their old forms and become replaced wholesale instead of evolving piece by deprecated piece.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#597

Post by gigatexal » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:41 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #554

gigatexal wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. Do you really fault Apple for wanting to hold onto their vice grip of the AppStore that gives them license to print money at ridiculous margins? I mean, their better angels would have them be so confident in the value of their own store that they'd allow other stores to compete on the merits but honestly ... if we were Tim Cook or in charge of Apple I think we'd all fight tooth-and-nail to keep this cash cow…

> license to print money They don't split out their profitability for the App store. Last time I tried to calculate it it was less than you might assume. Anyone have a good article/analysis of what % of Apple's profit comes from the App store tax? Ideally also with foremarket versus aftermarket?

30% on in-game tokens has got to be > 90% margins...

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#598

Post by dsissitka » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:43 PM UTC

gcanyon wrote: post #594

Etheryte wrote: post #84

The terms and conditions for web distribution [0] are concerning to say the least. In short, you have to have at least one million first installs annually on iOS to even qualify, in addition to other terms such as "good standing in the Apple Developer Program for two continuous years or more". I doubt Epic and the like would be considered in good standing as far as Apple is concerned. Also, quote unquote, developers…

I'm a little bit playing devil's advocate here, but: concerning how? > you have to have at least one million first installs annually on iOS to even qualify That's not what the site says at all? "Membership in the Apple Developer Program includes one million first annual installs per year for free for apps distributed from the App Store, alternative marketplaces, and/or Web Distribution." That seems to indicate that t…

Search for the first occurrence of million:

> To be eligible for Web Distribution, you must: ... have an app that had more than one million first annual installs on iOS in the EU in the prior calendar year.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#599

Post by ho_schi » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:44 PM UTC

crotchfire wrote: post #471

ho_schi wrote: post #229

Apple isn’t considering that they are the baddies? I suggest strong regulation of the complete BigIT and two chairs for public observers at minimum. In addition they are not allowed to enter any new market. Why? Because it worked well with AT&T . Results: * UNIX * C * Open-Source * Public Documentation Sounds good? Until the Reagan administration appeared, allowed them to split up (Baby Bells), the UNIX-Wars followed…

> allowed them to split up (Baby Bells) That's some pretty baldfaced revisionism you've got going on there. They were ordered to do this by a court: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=120938923478579...

Thanks for your comment. Maybe I’m wrong in that part. Your link sadly doesn’t work and shows an 404. I’m a little confused because the Wikipedia says:

    AT&T itself recommended a divestiture structure in which it would be broken up into regional subsidiaries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._AT%26T_(1982)

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#600

Post by BenFranklin100 » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:46 PM UTC

gigatexal wrote: post #521

ho_schi wrote: post #229

Apple isn’t considering that they are the baddies? I suggest strong regulation of the complete BigIT and two chairs for public observers at minimum. In addition they are not allowed to enter any new market. Why? Because it worked well with AT&T . Results: * UNIX * C * Open-Source * Public Documentation Sounds good? Until the Reagan administration appeared, allowed them to split up (Baby Bells), the UNIX-Wars followed…

I dunno. Do you really fault Apple for wanting to hold onto their vice grip of the AppStore that gives them license to print money at ridiculous margins? I mean, their better angels would have them be so confident in the value of their own store that they'd allow other stores to compete on the merits but honestly ... if we were Tim Cook or in charge of Apple I think we'd all fight tooth-and-nail to keep this cash cow…

The benefit of the app store isn’t money. It’s the security of the ecosystem. 3rd party apps will begin a race to the bottom of fly-by-night iOS developers in it for a fast buck with no qualms about advertising and data trafficking. Before long we end up with what is seen in the Android system.