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Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

nightshade.cs.uchicago.edu

591–600 of 710 posts

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#591
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to make sense of the above comment is difficult. > Copyright law demands that everyone play along with the lie that is intellectual monopoly. Saying "lie" suggests willful deception. Perhaps you mean "socially constructed"? Combined with "playing pretend" makes it read a bit like a rant. > Then let's use a more precise term that is also present in law: monopoly. Ok, in law and economics, the core idea of monop…

The best attempt at thought monopoly I can think of is religion. Even that is a general failure: no single religious narrative has ever stood constant. They have all evolved through the participation of their adherents. There is no one true Christianity: there are hundreds . I most certainly do mean to call out copyright as willful, but it's not a deception, at least not a successful one: everyone knows it is false.…

> I most certainly do mean to call out copyright as willful, but it's not a deception, at least not a successful one: everyone knows it is false.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this is not even wrong. What about copyright law is empirically false? Such a question is non-sensical.

Your comment redefines the word "false" in a way that muddles understanding. You aren't alone -- some philosophers do this -- but it tends to confuse rather than clarify. I've developed antibodies for language abuse of this kind. Such language can even have the effect of making language charged and divisive.

Many people understand the value of using the words _true_ and _false_ to apply to the assessment of _facts_. This is a useful convention. (To be clear, I'm not opposed to bending language when it is useful.)

To give a usage example: a misguided law is not _false_. Such a statement is non-sensical. We have clear phrases for this kind of law, such poorly designed, having unintended consequences, etc. We could go further and say that a law is i.e. immoral or pointless. You are likely making those kinds of claims. By using those phrases, we can have a high-bandwidth conversation much more quickly.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#592
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it facilitates commoditization. Art – real art – is fundamentally a human-to-human transaction. Once everyone can fire perfectly-rendered perfectly-unique pieces of 'art' at each other, it'll just become like the internet is today: filled with extremely low-value noise. Enjoy the short term novelty while you can.

> Art – real art – is fundamentally a human-to-human transaction. Why is this hippie nonsense so popular?

Because some things are different than others, even though they might have the same word to describe them.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#593
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s totally fine, everyone’s definition of art is subjective. But general value of an art as a piece will just still be zero for AI generated ones, just like any IKEA / Amazon print piece. You just pay for the “looks pretty”, frame and paper.

> You just pay for the “looks pretty”, frame and paper. But you pay that for any piece of art though? You appreciate it because you like what it looks like. The utility of it is in how good it looks, it's not how much effort was put into it. If you need a ditch you're not going to value the ditch more if the worker dug it by hand instead of using an excavator. You value it based on the utility it provides you.

That analogy doesn’t work for art, since worker’s ditch is result based. There are no feelings like “i like this ditch”, “experience of a ditch” or “i’m curious how this ditch was dug”.

Again, i’m not saying buying a mass made AI art will be wrong. Just personally speaking, it will never evoke any feelings other than “looks neat” for me. So its inherent “art value” is close to 0 as I can guess its history is basically someone put in a prompt and sent it to print (which I can do myself on my phone too!). It’s the same as looking at cool building pics on my phone (0 art value) versus actually seeing them in person (non-0), mostly because the feelings I get from it. That being said, if it makes others happy, it’s not my place to judge.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#594
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to make sense of the above comment is difficult. > Copyright law demands that everyone play along with the lie that is intellectual monopoly. Saying "lie" suggests willful deception. Perhaps you mean "socially constructed"? Combined with "playing pretend" makes it read a bit like a rant. > Then let's use a more precise term that is also present in law: monopoly. Ok, in law and economics, the core idea of monop…

The best attempt at thought monopoly I can think of is religion. Even that is a general failure: no single religious narrative has ever stood constant. They have all evolved through the participation of their adherents. There is no one true Christianity: there are hundreds . I most certainly do mean to call out copyright as willful, but it's not a deception, at least not a successful one: everyone knows it is false.…

> Every film on Netflix, every song on Spotify, etc. can obviously be copied any number of times by any number of people at any place on Earth. We are all acutely aware of this fact, but copyright tells us, "Pretend you can't, or get prosecuted."

I see the dark arts of rhetoric used here, and it is shameful. The portion I quoted above is incredibly confused. I would almost call it a straw man, but it is worse than that.

Copyright law says no such thing. Of course you _could_ copy something. Copyright law exists precisely because you can do that. The law says i.e. "if you break copyright law, you will be at risk of a sufficiently motivated prosecutor."

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#595
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's true, then it should be fine for that human to paint with the brush of his AI tool. Why should that human artist be restricted in the types of tools he uses to create his artwork?

Should I be restricted in using copy paste as my tool for creating art?

like collage art?

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#596
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to make sense of the above comment is difficult. > Copyright law demands that everyone play along with the lie that is intellectual monopoly. Saying "lie" suggests willful deception. Perhaps you mean "socially constructed"? Combined with "playing pretend" makes it read a bit like a rant. > Then let's use a more precise term that is also present in law: monopoly. Ok, in law and economics, the core idea of monop…

The best attempt at thought monopoly I can think of is religion. Even that is a general failure: no single religious narrative has ever stood constant. They have all evolved through the participation of their adherents. There is no one true Christianity: there are hundreds . I most certainly do mean to call out copyright as willful, but it's not a deception, at least not a successful one: everyone knows it is false.…

The comment above suffers from much rhetoric to serve as a good jumping off point. For those interested, I would recommend the following two articles:

## "Rhetoric and Reality in Copyright Law" by Stewart E. Sterk

Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law. https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...

> Why give authors an exclusive right to their writings? Copyright rhetoric generally offers two answers. The first is instrumental: copyright provides an incentive for authors to create and disseminate works of social value. By giving authors a monopoly over their works, copyright corrects for the underincentive to create that might result if free riders were permitted to share in the value created by an author's efforts. The second answer is desert: copyright rewards authors, who simply deserve recompense for their contributions whether or not recompense would induce them to engage in creative activity.

> The rhetoric evokes sympathetic images of the author at work. The instrumental justification for copyright paints a picture of an author struggling to avoid abandoning his calling in order to feed his family. By contrast, the desert justification conjures up a genius irrevocably committed to his work, resigned - or oblivious - to living conditions not commensurate with his social contributions. The two images have a common thread: extending the scope of copyright protection relieves the author's plight.

> Indeed, the same rhetoric· - emphasizing both incentives and desert - consistently has been invoked to justify two centuries of copyright expansion. Unfortunately, however, the rhetoric captures only a small slice of contemporary copyright reality. Although some copyright protection indeed may be necessary to induce creative activity, copyright doctrine now extends well beyond the contours of the instrumental justification. ...

## "Copyright Nonconsequentialism" by David McGowan

Missouri Law Review. https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art...

> This Article explores the foundations of copyright law. It tries to explain why those who debate copyright often seem to talk past each other. I contend the problem is that copyright scholars pay too much attention to instrumental arguments, which are often indeterminate, and too little to the first principles that affect how one approaches copyright law.

> Most arguments about copyright law use instrumental language to make consequentialist arguments. It is common for scholars to contend one or another rule will advance or impede innovation, the efficient allocation and production of expression, personal autonomy, consumer welfare, the "robustness" of public debate, and so on.' Most of these instrumental arguments, though not quite all of them, reduce to propositions that cannot be tested or rejected empirically. Such propositions therefore cannot explain existing doctrine or the positions taken in debate.

> These positions vary widely. Consumer advocates favor broad fair use rights and narrow liability standards for contributory infiringement; producer advocates favor the reverse.' Most of the arguments for both consumers and producers prove too much. It is easy to say that the right to exclude is needed to provide incentives for authors. It is hard to show that any particular rules provide optimal incentives. It is easy to point to deviations from the model of perfect competition. It is hard to show why these deviations imply particular rules.

> ...

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#597
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey you know what might not be AI generated post-2021? Almost everything run through Nightshade. So given it's defeated, which is pretty likely, artists have effectively tagged their own work for inclusion.

It is a great shame that we have come to a no-win situation for artists when VCs are virtually unable to lose.

I mean that's more or less status quo isn't it? Big business does what it wants, common people can get fucked if they don't like it. Same as it ever was.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any time you use something with "fair use" in mind, it is the equivalent of saying, "I'm going to steal this, and hopefully, a court agrees that this is fair use." Thousands of reviews, book reports, quotations on fan sites and so on are published daily; you seem to be arguing that they are all copyright violations unless and until the original copyright holder takes those reviewers, seventh graders, and Tumblr sta…

> Thousands of reviews, book reports, quotations on fan sites and so on are published daily; you seem to be arguing that they are all copyright violations unless and until the original copyright holder takes those reviewers, seventh graders, and Tumblr stans to court and loses, at which point they are now a-ok. That is precisely what I am arguing about and how it works. People have sued reviewers for including too mu…

The link you provide to back up "people have sued reviewers for including too much of the original tet in the review" doesn't say that at all, though. The Nation lost that case because (quoting from that Cornell article you linked),

> [Nation editor Victor Navasky] hastily put together what he believed was "a real hot news story" composed of quotes, paraphrases, and facts drawn exclusively from the manuscript. Mr. Navasky attempted no independent commentary, research or criticism, in part because of the need for speed if he was to "make news" by "publish[ing] in advance of publication of the Ford book." [...] The Nation effectively arrogated to itself the right of first publication, an important marketable subsidiary right.

The Nation lost this case in large part because it was not a review, but instead an attempt to beat Time Magazine's article that was supposed to be an exclusive first serial right. If it had, in fact, just been a review, there wouldn't have been a case here, because it wouldn't have been stealing.

Anyway, I don't think you're going to be convinced you're interpreting this wrongly, and I don't think I'm going to be convinced I'm interpreting it wrongly. But I am going to say, with absolute confidence, that you're simply not going to find many cases of reviewers being sued for reviews -- which Harper & Row vs. Nation is, again, not actually an example of -- and you're going to find even fewer cases of that being successful. Why am I so confident about that? Well, I am not a lawyer, but I am a published author, and I am going to let you in a little secret here: both publishers and authors do, in fact, want their work to be reviewed, and suing reviewers for literally doing what we want is counterproductive. :)

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#599
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a reductive way to describe learning art. The similarities are merely surface level. > Given that there is no comprehensive model for how humans actually learn things, that would be an unfeasible requirement. That is precisely why we should not be making this comparison.

> The similarities are merely surface level. Then please, feel free to explain the deep differences. > That is precisely why we should not be making this comparison. Wrong. It's precisely why the claim "there is a big difference" doesn't have a leg to stand on. If you claim "this is different", I ask "how?" and the answer simply repeats the claim, I can apply Hitchens Razor[1] and dismiss the claim. [1]: https://en.w…

A person sitting in an art school/museum for a few hours ingests way more than just the art in question. The entire context is brought in too, including the artists own physical/emotional state. Arguably, the art is a miniscule component of all sensory inputs. Generative AI ingests a perfectly cropped image of just the art from a single angle with little context beyond labelling metadata.

It's the difference between reading about a place and actually visiting it.

Edit: This doesn't even touch how the act of creating something - often in a completely different context - interacts with the memories of the original work, altering those memories yet again.

Re: Nightshade: An offensive tool for artists against AI art generators

#600
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, you need to prove that generative AI works fundamentally the same way as humans at the task of learning. Next you have to prove that it recalls information in the same way as humans. No, you don't need to prove any of those things. They're irrelevant. You'd need to prove that the AI is itself morally (or, depending on the nature of the dispute, legally) equivalent to a human and therefore deserving of (or ent…

Few people are claiming that the AI itself has the same rights as a human. They are arguing that a human with an AI has the same rights as a human who doesn't have an AI.

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