'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#591

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:31 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #516

Invictus0 wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reason to believe that a Palestinian state with full control of its borders would not immediately begin the process of accumulating weapons to repeat Oct 7? Hamas has never affirmed Israel's right to exist.

Treaties and UN involvement could be arranged to help guarantee this. However, what is clear is that Israel's current approach is not working to ensure its security, and that in the last few decades it has only succeeded in turning the population of Palestine ever more bitter against them. So, unless they are prepared to wipe them out entirely, what possible hope is there in continuing in this direction? Say Hamas is…

> Treaties and UN involvement could be arranged to help guarantee this.

I don’t think that the UN is trustworthy in this manner. It seems like the UN is like Lord Farquad in Shrek:

“This ceasefire with Hamas may cost thousands of Israeli lives, but that is a risk the UN is willing to take for the sake of peace.”

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#592

Post by liorsbg » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:31 PM UTC

nonviol wrote: post #324

liorsbg wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Gaza, all they would have to do is put their weapons down. Blockade and restrictions would lift, and Gaza could be prosperous. In the West Bank, I agree that the settlements are abhorrent and need to be removed.

This is what happened when Gazans tried nonviolent protest: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-ma... https://archive.ph/vDhPP I'm not implying that October 7 was justified.

The hypothetical I'm referring to doesn't require protests.

1. Gaza declares "we're done trying to kill you guys" and means it. 2. A few quite months go by 3. Embargo and restriction start slowly lifting 4. More quiet months, life in Gaza improves 5. Repeat steps 3-4 for a few years. 6. Gaza is free, independent and thriving.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#593

Post by h3rsko » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:33 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #483

nahumfarchi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

>Finally, an honest question, what would you do? How would you respond in this situation? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/29/opinion/israel-hamas-ceas... There are plenty of cases of countries being attacked by terrorists and not responding like Israel has. PKK has carried out acts of terrorism in Turkey. FARC carried out attacks in Colombia for half a century .

Countries being attacked by a sovereign city-state?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#594

Post by jstarfish » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:35 PM UTC

Levitz wrote: post #442

psipisi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>When you're on the side of women and children, who lose in every conflict, everyone else gets confused because they expect you to pick one of the men's teams. So men don't lose in every conflict? Countries are "men's teams"? I'm sorry but this is infantilizing as well as brutally sexist.

Women certainly gained a lot economically from WWII while the men were getting minced at Normandy. Ukrainian women and children were allowed to flee while the men are eviscerated by Wagner and Friends.

Current estimates suggest 2/3 of civilian deaths in Gaza consist of women and children. That leaves 1/3 of deaths being men. But this is disregarded altogether because sexist rhetoric is acceptable when you're a radical feminist UwU.

I can't find exact numbers easily, but a Turkish source said in 2023-November:

> The Palestinian Health Ministry said on Tuesday that the death toll from Israeli’s ongoing intensified onslaught on the Gaza Strip since Oct. 7 has jumped to 10,328 people. Among the killed are 4,237 children and 2,719 women, Gaza-based Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qudra said at a press conference. (https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/palestinian-death-toll-...)

10328 dead. 2719 were women. 4237 were children. Someone's missing-- oh, must be 3372 men.

It turns out men and children also comprise 2/3 of deaths right now. In raw numbers women are actually the least-affected of all demographics in the current conflict, but the narrative is touted that women have it worse. (The NYT corollary: black women always have it worse.)

To claim that women are the biggest losers in every conflict is histrionic bullshit. Men just don't count because we're stupid enough to defend them, while everybody loses in war-- children, most of all.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#595

Post by awinograd » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:35 PM UTC

jacooper wrote: post #465

anovick wrote: post #63

[flagged]

[flagged]

The parent comment is discussing a different hospital, Al-Ahli on Oct 17th, vs Al-Shifa on Nov 10th which is the article you're linking to from NYT.

Civilians being injured in a hospital is clearly a tragedy. That's why hospitals normally have protected status during a war and targeting them would be a war crime. However, hospitals (and other protected sites like schools) lose their protected status when they're used for military purposes[1]. That doesn't make the situation less tragic for the civilians. But there's a difference between striking a random hospital because you want to kill civilians and killing civilians while striking hostile forces in the same vicinity that may be actively shooting at you.

[1] https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#596

Post by roenxi » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:36 PM UTC

hersko wrote: post #371

ZunarJ5 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additional friendly reminder that Bush Jr is responsible for Hamas. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-electe...

Don't treat the Palestinians like they have no agency...

Based on what I know about Palestinians, they appear to be close to having no agency. They don't control what crosses their border, the Israeli government may well be trying to destroy them and their politics are the plaything of regional and non-regional powers. For example, Israel played a role in incubating Hamas [0, 1].

Now if I were in Gaza my opinion is that what they are doing is stupid. They don't really have a choice but to like it and make the best of their situation with charity, tolerance and love. All the other plays lead to worse results. But there aren't many political bodies with less agency.

[0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#597

Post by kybernetikos » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:37 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #424

ido wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not lived in Israel for most of the last 20 years, but I do have family and friends there. I also know plenty of both Israelis and Palestinians moderates, but they are unfortunately the small minority on both sides.

I don't think it's fair to say that Israeli moderates are the minority - though that entirely depends on what you mean by "Israeli moderates". I think the majority do not have any "territorial ambition" and would usually happily agree to a two state solution peace agreement, including giving up the WB, as long as security to Israel was guaranteed. We are very far from this being realistic because of a lack of leaders…

> as long as security to Israel was guaranteed.

That idea which seems so reasonable can encompass a lot of very unreasonable positions.

Total security is never guaranteed, and many evils have been committed in pursuit of it.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#598

Post by kamikazeturtles » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:38 PM UTC

marcell wrote: post #581

kamikazeturtles wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you consider Netanyahu, for years, propped up and funded Hamas, it makes everything more confusing to understand https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

FTA: > Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products. > > Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm. It sounds like an eff…

I understand the benefit extra work permits would've brought to Gaza's economy but removing the blockade would do a lot more to help Gaza's economy. Work permits are just a bandaid over a much wider occupation.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#599

Post by kurthr » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:39 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #517

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leaders have also said they will kill Jews anywhere in the world, btw I'm curious, is your claim that one of the current leaders of Hamas said this? If so I'd love to read the quote. > If Israel doesn't take out Hamas, it is entirely unclear if it will be able to prevent them from carrying out more attacks in the future. One counterargument is that taking out Hamas, if they succeed (I'm not bullish), is likely to j…

> I'm curious, is your claim that one of the current leaders of Hamas said this? If so I'd love to read the quote. I saw a video of this today, the quote was from 2019 though (and he was condemned for it and walked it back), so maybe this shouldn't be taken "too seriously" (it was on my mind cause I saw it today, mostly): > In July 2019, Hamad urged members of the Palestinian diaspora to kill "Jews everywhere". His c…

Israel's IDF claims 55 commanders and perhaps 5000 Hamas fighters killed, while 17,700 civilians have been killed (over 3:1 ratio). Apparent targeted killings of journalists and aid workers don't help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#600

Post by merpnderp » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:39 PM UTC

stainablesteel wrote: post #573

i've not heard from anyone on the anti-israeli side what israel should have done after 10/7 other than "leave" its just such a confusing discussion, what kind of retaliation would someone of that mindset find appropriate for those 1000+ killed/tortured/raped from the initial attack? i can't find any steelmanned positions of this

And people seem to ignore Israel's stated goal. They no longer find it possible to live next to Hamas and are fighting a war of unconditional surrender and occupation.

So it is confusing when people claim Israel has far surpassed any proportional response as Israel was never attempting tit-for-tat, but unconditional surrender.