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Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

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Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#591
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monopolies are not illegal. It’s leveraging the monopoly to exert force on adjacent markets that is. In the case here googles foul play is making side deals for preferential treatment against other app stores given their control over the handset operating system. Apple doesn’t offer an App Store market and never has nor ever represented otherwise, the app store is and always has been part of the operating system. Thi…

According to https://www.justice.gov/archives/atr/competition-and-monopol... it does not have to be about adjacent markets. Maintaining a monopoly alone can be illegal, depending on the means. Blocking all other means of distributing apps in a reasonable way absolutely should have been enough to get Apple sanctioned. Blocking alternatives with economic incentives is now forbidden, but blocking the access using code i…

The US actually had it right when the antitrust laws were written. The Libertarian Party and Austrian Economists fucked it up for the rest of us by convincing everyone that "no, actually, antitrust is just about prices and consumer welfare, not control". This interpretation was ahistorical and illiberal, but it became history regardless, like to the point where Originalism as applied to antitrust law is derided as "hipster antitrust".

America's failings in economic development and infrastructure are not strictly caused by monopolization of the economy. South Korea's economy is run by like three chaebols[0] but they have working infrastructure. The problem with America is that we have a government that doesn't like to spend money, plus a group of illiberal, antidemocratic NIMBYs who make budgeting impossible by jacking up the cost of projects after they've already been estimated and committed to.

Since I already shat on the Libertarian Party, let me shit on the Democratic Party next. California and New York have legal climates that are unusually hospitable to NIMBYism. They figured out how to weaponize environmental review laws, to the point where actual reports about environmental infrastructure necessary for mitigating or surviving climate change say that we can't build the infrastructure because it'll get tied down in NIMBY red tape. In California this manifests as delays, cancellations, and massive wind farms in Wyoming; in New York it's cost overruns as bribes are paid to whoever can look the other way to get things passed through. Either way we can't build shit in our most populated states.

If there's a root cause for all of this, it's "vetocracy". In a democracy, when a decision is made, the people on the losing end of this decision agree to lose. However, since at least the 1970s, there has been several parallel movements to roll back decisions already made and form new mechanisms to prevent new decisions from being implemented. Antitrust was a rollback, NIMBYism was a new mechanism, but in either case, we're being dragged out of our brief experiment with liberal democracy by people who stand to gain from it.

[0] The Korean for Zaibatsu[1]

[1] The Japanese for Chaebol[0]

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monopolies are not illegal. It’s leveraging the monopoly to exert force on adjacent markets that is. In the case here googles foul play is making side deals for preferential treatment against other app stores given their control over the handset operating system. Apple doesn’t offer an App Store market and never has nor ever represented otherwise, the app store is and always has been part of the operating system. Thi…

Just a slight clarification. The first Apple iPhone did not have an app store.

It was added to the original iPhone with iPhone OS 2.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only the abuse of a monopoly position to advance your interest in other markets is illegal. Two markets ARE at play for consumers: mobile phone hardware (with OS) and mobile app stores/apps. Apple is using it's monopoly in the former to create/enforce a monopoly in the latter. You can tell there are two separate markets because you, the consumer, make (at least) two separate purchases to participate.

In the case of Apple, it's the same market. Because the only way to get access to the App Store is through an iPhone bought from Apple. And the only way to run an iOS app is with the same iPhone.

Yes, but this is only because Apple designed the phone that way. Apple should not be immune from antitrust law purely because they decided not to allow competition.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think stores have an obligation to carry your products, it isn't like supermarkets are breaking the law because they don't have an open-door policy on products. I agree. However, consumers have the right to go to a different supermarket, without selling their house.

And supermarkets have no obligation to build expressways to their competitors! We can take these analogy absurdities wherever — the harsh reality is that nobody is stopping someone from building an open ecosystem phone. But there isn’t enough demand. As a consumer, why should I care? As a company, unless I’m building my own walled garden for company phones, why should I care? What’s the market here?

> the harsh reality is that nobody is stopping someone from building an open ecosystem phone.

The harsh reality is that manufacturing capacity and network effects actually prevents building an open ecosystem phone. You will never be able to purchase the best chips and displays.

I think we need to stop pretending that regulating competition is a bad thing. Competition is what makes capitalism work as an economic system. Without competition capitalism is inefficient and harmful. If we can inject more competition into the system as a whole, wherever possible, it's going to be good for consumers.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#595
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't need to strike secret deals to keep out alternative app stores because they've made alternate app stores completely impossible. If the result of this case is "you can have a monopoly as long as your device and ecosystem are 100% locked down", that's terrible!

I don't get it, so no company can provide a walled garden? Or at least, not if they're successful? That doesn't make sense to me, why is that not an acceptable and desirable feature for some people ? You don't have to buy an iPhone, this isn't like a railroad or a telecom that owns all of the possible infrastructure. If you want a walled garden get an iPhone. If you want freedom with all that implies, go Android.

>I don't get it, so no company can provide a walled garden? Or at least, not if they're successful?

Framing things as you have leads to the impression that, by analogy to oppressing a person, restricting a large company is bad. But a company is not a person. Companies are legal constructs that exist because they are useful to society. A monopoly distorts markets and stifles innovation by disadvantaging potential competitors. This is not beneficial to society and so should not be permitted. So yes, a sufficiently large company should not be permitted to do things that might be permissible for a smaller company.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#596
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get it, so no company can provide a walled garden You can provide a walled garden. But that's not Apple does. Instead, Apple is a mafia that shakes down all the vendors for the right to sell in their semi-open market square. If Apple iOS were a walled garden, it would have contained only Apple applications.

I don't think stores have an obligation to carry your products, it isn't like supermarkets are breaking the law because they don't have an open-door policy on products. You don't have some intrinsic legal right to use someone else's infrastructure to sell your own stuff, on your terms. Framing this as a legal or ethical issue leaves me cold, when the reality is just... you'd PREFER higher margins. I get it! I'm not s…

This is a poor analogy, because there is no coparable access to build other app stores, as this is not the same kind of ecosystem for a market.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, consumers have the right to go to a different supermarket, without selling their house. Consumers bought this house with their eyes wide open knowing that they can only access one supermarket.

I'd challenge you on that. I think 95%+ of iPhone buyers have no idea that Apple places restrictions on what they are allowed to install.

My iPhone users don't know that they're being "taxed" 30% on every single app purchase.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#598
post #552
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Apple didn’t decide that only Netflix could be on their platform. And they didn’t take money to cause problems for other streaming video services. That’s what Google did according to the verdict. They paid money to stop competitors. In fact Apple negotiated that deal to keep Netflix on the platform because Netflix wasn’t happy paying 30% (surprise). It’s not good that they’re playing favorites secretly, but it’s…

Did other streaming services get the same deal?

That doesn't matter. Businesses aren't required to make the same deals with everyone.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a slight clarification. The first Apple iPhone did not have an app store.

I think what they meant could be rephrased as, "for as long as there's been an App Store, it's been part of the OS. "

Which I believe is also false. The jailbroken appstores predate the apple appstore.

Re: Epic vs. Google: Google Loses

#600
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't need to strike secret deals to keep out alternative app stores because they've made alternate app stores completely impossible. If the result of this case is "you can have a monopoly as long as your device and ecosystem are 100% locked down", that's terrible!

I don't get it, so no company can provide a walled garden? Or at least, not if they're successful? That doesn't make sense to me, why is that not an acceptable and desirable feature for some people ? You don't have to buy an iPhone, this isn't like a railroad or a telecom that owns all of the possible infrastructure. If you want a walled garden get an iPhone. If you want freedom with all that implies, go Android.

> I don't get it, so no company can provide a walled garden? Or at least, not if they're successful?

Exactly. If you take US antitrust law as written, once you're close to being the dominant player, you can't have a walled garden.

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