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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#591

Post by jpgvm »

chrisdinn wrote: post #582
jpgvm wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main pain-points in a large org at least: Lack of a "default" stack for nearly anything. The stdlib is great but the ecosystem isn't. Which web framework? Does it come with a logger? If not which logger? Do the third party libraries I want to use work with my logger/have a mechanism to provide one via an interface or am I shit out of luck? This goes for so many more things though, cache libraries, data structures…

Teasing this apart I see a few things: a) logging, b) modules rollout and c) missing frameworks. I’ve never had a logging issue in large systems. Explicit error return (as you know, on every function) allows you to log in your code, not lean on only libraries that support your interface. Modules rollout was part of growing up. But, you won’t get Go 1->2 upgrade issues as we have 100% backward compatibility on version…

Good to hear logging has gotten better.

Though I still don't see a standard web stack. "stdlib is enough" is only true for people that don't need their hand held and/or can organise good standards across teams.

If it was just me or people I know are good writing the software that works. At Google it probably works because of aforementioned hiring bar. At the average large-ish company? Not something I like leaving to chance because I have usually ended up disappointed.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#592

Post by nprateem »

iampivot wrote: post #306
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Coming from Spring Boot with it's 17+ level deep abstractions to Go / gin-gonic was such a breath of fresh air!

I went the other way as I was sick of all the repetition in Go. Spring boot/JPA data repositories save so much SQL, and spring boot automatically marshals to and from JSON, form data, etc. It means you can just work on the meaningful business logic. Add on Lombok and there's even less to maintain.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#593

Post by nprateem »

nine_k wrote: post #457
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go has made many decisions that i'm not happy about. If they did one thing exactly right on the language level, it's the [lack of] OOP: interfaces in their implementations, and no inheritance, overridden methods, covariance / contravariance games, etc. You can of course write in Java in that style: only extend interfaces, never inherit classes. But many libraries, including the standard library, actively refuse to co…

And yet even after writing Go for 5+ years I still have to Google for what actually implements Reader so I can read a file, etc.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#594

Post by fatfingerd »

msgilligan wrote: post #585

The title of the blog post is IMO a poor choice. The (hidden) subtitle of the post is "Algebraic data types in Java" which is much more descriptive of the content. A better title would have been "Algebraic data types in Java 21". Perhaps because of the title, many/most of the comments here are off-topic. I was hoping to see more discussion about algebraic data types, strengths and weaknesses of the Java implementatio…

Yes, I'm also not really sure I want to see algebraic types in Java even though I would prefer if a language that focused on algebraic types was more popular.

All the existing Java code doesn't go away, so is it really going to be nicer to have code like this mixed randomly into that?

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#595

Post by jpgvm »

jppittma wrote: post #580
jpgvm wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main pain-points in a large org at least: Lack of a "default" stack for nearly anything. The stdlib is great but the ecosystem isn't. Which web framework? Does it come with a logger? If not which logger? Do the third party libraries I want to use work with my logger/have a mechanism to provide one via an interface or am I shit out of luck? This goes for so many more things though, cache libraries, data structures…

No web framework, the standard library is enough. log/slog is in the standard library now, and is compatible with zap, which seems to work with everything. >IMO Go is high velocity only in the simplest sense, it's very easy to pump out shit tons of code. With a big team of mediocre developers this is even more true. The problems all come later. Big change in requirements? Good luck with that. Had a team try to go cra…

The stdlib really isn't enough unless you want num_teams x session handling implementations etc.

> I doublt things would go better for teams trying to go full OO in haskell, or full functional in Java.

That is the beauty of Java, no one does this.

They don't feel like they need, should or will get approval to.

Go is pretty much the wild west because "the std lib is enough" attitude permeates everything. Build your own datastructures, build your own anything really.

I can understand why many people find that attractive and hate Java as a result, sometimes Java feels more like Lego and less like programming but it does create predictable reliably constructed software that is generally easy to clean up even if it's done a bit poorly.

Which is something I value because I often end up in the code janitor role and/or being air-dropped in to get a project back on schedule or drastically cut down the defects etc.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#596

Post by hugi »

hutzlibu wrote: post #38
belter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the memory problems of C++, the speed of C++ most of the time. Thousands of high quality libraries, a JVM that is a marvel of engineering after 20 years, tooling for development, monitoring and introspection of exceptional quality. Many of the internal tools at the largest Cloud developed in Java. Most enterprise level software. NASA extensive use of Java. A team behind the development who has stunning common…

What would be a modern IDE for Java? I remember programming Java in Eclipse. And it was powerful for the time, but everytime I read bloated, I automatically think Eclipse since then..

Eclipse has seen vast development in the last few years and is fast and easy to use these days.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#597

Post by datavirtue »

impulser_ wrote: post #187
northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Lol...you use the language most appropriate for the given situation. What's appropriate in the browser....hmmm. Can't slam your foot down on that one.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#598

Post by yCombLinks »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #435
mrkeen wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the sane members of the Java community have long since moved on from Java, and they're not coming back We wish! We're stuck in the Java job market, reading Java praise pieces like this... Oh boy! Java's getting structs?

How long until we get continuations in Java? Maybe another 10y? How long until we get TCO? Lets say 20y? And in the end it will still not feel clean or as neat as other languages, that had this stuff for multiple decades.

Hopefully never. There's a reason no primarily functional language ever became mainstream. The "elegant code" they allow is never as lovely as the zealots imagine

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#599

Post by agrounds »

pharmakom wrote: post #566

the argument for Java seems to be that it's gradually gaining features we already have in Scala, Kotlin, OCAML, F#, etc... so why not use the languages that have those features today?

Inertia. There are still a ton of Java shops out there, and many of them will not switch even partially to another language anytime soon. The hope is that these orgs might find it easier to upgrade to Java 21+ than to learn and start using Kotlin/Scala/etc. I fully expect I might find myself working at such an org again, and when I do I’ll be grateful for newer Java features.

Signed, a dev who would never willingly choose Java over Kotlin for anything ever again.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#600

Post by synergy20 »

mike_hearn wrote: post #481
paradite wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mentioned "distribute software" but did not consider Electron for Node. You can make an Electron app with JavaScript and ship the binary (or installer) on any platform. It's not a single executable file, but the user experience is the same. I don't think there's an equivalent in Go that allows you build a desktop app like that (with frontend and backend both written in Go)?

You can do that with Java too. The JDK has jpackage, but if you want something better than I'm willing to sell that to you (or give it for free, if you're open source): https://conveyor.hydraulic.dev/ It can be used to ship servers, we use it that way for our own servers. It sets up systemd so you don't need to use Docker. But where it shines is desktop apps. Windows users get a little 400kb EXE that installs/updates…

Java GUI is less appealing though
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